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as always you can click on the timestamp

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in the description as well as here to

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skip this longish introduction the

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theories of everything channel is back

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with a new season starting with last

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week's ama which will be in the

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description

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from this point forward there will be

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new content approximately once a week

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sometimes even more frequently today's

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guests are carl fristen mike 11 and

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chris field the former two have been on

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this channel and mentioned several times

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prior whereas chris fields is making his

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debut chris fields is a researcher in

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topological quantum field theory as well

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as information theory and publishes work

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on what constitutes an observer carl

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fristin is a professor of neuroscience

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at the university college london and is

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the inventor of the free energy

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principle michael levin is the

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developmental and synthetic biologist at

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the tufts university the links to all

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their previous podcasts on the toad

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channel will be in the description my

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name is kurt jaymungal i'm a torontonian

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filmmaker with a background in

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mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication quote unquote of the

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variegated terrain of theories of

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everything primarily from a theoretical

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physics perspective but as well as

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trying to understand what role does

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consciousness have as constitutive

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reality is it emergent is it fundamental

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now the goals of theo locutions is to

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interject seldomly if at all allowing

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each guest to give their perspectives on

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one another's thoughts essentially

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giving us the experience of a fly on the

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wall for the sorts of academic

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conversations that would ordinarily

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occur behind closed doors spurring

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research in real time one of the central

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issues of today's podcast is the concept

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of babbling which i haven't heard

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discussed virtually anywhere else

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outside of child development or language

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acquisition though it can be generalized

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metaphorically perhaps even literally to

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the vacuum fluctuations to interpret

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what vacuum fluctuations are doing as an

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indicator of the universe's

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proto-consciousness that is the universe

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babbling to understand itself but i

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won't spoil the surprise if you'd like

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to hear more podcasts like these then do

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consider going to patreon.com

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kurtjmungle as the patrons and the

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sponsors are the only reasons that i'm

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able to do this full time with regard to

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sponsors there's one for today's episode

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and that is brilliant during the winter

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break i decided to brush up on the

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fundamentals of information theory which

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is what constructor theory is heavily

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based in and i'd like to do an episode

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on that so i took brilliant's course on

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knowledge and uncertainty and random

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variables and after taking that course i

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could finally see why entropy is defined

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the way it is why the formula for it is

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extremely natural there are plenty of

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courses you can even learn group theory

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which is what's being referenced when

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you hear that the internal symmetries of

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the standard model is u1 cross s2 cross

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su 3 those are league groups visit

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brilliant.org toe to get 20 off the

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annual subscription i recommend that you

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don't stop before four lessons just keep

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pursuing until you've accomplished at

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least four and i think you'll be greatly

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surprised at the ease at which you can

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now comprehend subjects you previously

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had a difficult time grocking and now on

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to today's episode which is one that i'm

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extremely lucky to be able to present to

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you all you'll be able to see the mutual

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respect that the guests have for one

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another we start off actually by asking

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what is it that you respect about each

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other's work enjoy this theo locution

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between carl fristen michael levin and

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chris fields i've been extremely excited

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about this

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so professor what do you find unique

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about carl's and chris's work and what

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is it that you respect about them

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well what a great question i think all

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discussions should uh should should

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start with that question um uh there's a

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lot i mean i think i think uh the most

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basic thing i can say is this that i'm

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i'm often asked by by uh conference

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organizers and students as far as who

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who they should follow yeah who's whose

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work they should um keep track of and

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and so i keep lists and uh and and carl

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and chris are at the very top of two

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specific lists for me and i'm just

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always amazed about this is that the

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first the first is that um both of them

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are experts in at least three different

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fields but probably more so so so they

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have the ability to kind of merge really

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deep um understanding of different

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fields i mean there's many people that

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are experts in one thing

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but i'm just i'm just always incredibly

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impressed that's how they uh both of

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them can we weave together a really deep

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knowledge from from from diverse

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disciplines and and and that leads to

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the kind of the second thing that that

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i'm really inspired by which is just the

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kind of the sheer density of new ideas

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you know it's hard enough to push things

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in one just kind of one known direction

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and do science and so on but both both

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chris and carl's work um consistently

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make me think in new ways uh give me

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ideas i've never never thought of before

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it's just just just amazing so yeah so

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i'm super excited to be able to work

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with both of them and to have this

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discussion

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great

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chris same question but toward michael

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and carl

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uh well i can say that

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one thing i certainly

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admire

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is that

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uh

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michael and carl are both

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top-level biologists who are interested

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in theory

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and have a deep understanding

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of

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uh theory

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and

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uh

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something that i enormously admire

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is that both of them

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have that interest

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and yet are deeply engaged in practical

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applications

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uh

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carl and mental health and

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mike and regenerative biology

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and that's

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carl what is it that you find unique

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about michael's and chris's work and

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what do you particularly respect about

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them as people perhaps

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i deliberately haven't rehearsed an

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answer so what i say comes from the

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heart

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um

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i first met him vicariously through a

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friend giovanni pizzulo

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and

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didn't really know very much about his

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work until i visited his website and

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then i realized how influential and

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important he was and then i recognized

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all the little bulletins you get on

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social media and emails i started to

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recognize his name and realize that he

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was you know he was quite a mover and

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shaker out there

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what i like about both of them they both

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think really really fast and they both

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think out of the box um

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so i think what characterizes

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both of their thinking really is just to

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ask what is a thing in and of itself

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without making any prior assumptions and

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then putting it back together

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from basic principles and coming up with

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some sometimes counter-intuitive um

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conclusions and but for me

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almost uh universally exactly the same

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counter-intuitive conclusions i've come

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to after about 10 years of thinking

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about a particular problem but never

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dare tell anybody but they do they write

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it down very eloquently and

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they're very very productive

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chris i've known for less long and i've

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met him via mike um and

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in addition to that in the same way that

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many people i meet have physics envy and

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i've got quantum envy uh for about chris

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yeah he just seems to know so much

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and think about the world in a way which

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i don't have that sort of fluency in but

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it sounds really really useful and and

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quite correct so i'm hoping if i hang

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around long enough some of it will rub

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off on me

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should be able to use the words without

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sounding like an idiot

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what would be an example of this

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out-of-the-box thinking you mentioned

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thinking about what is a thing in and of

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itself

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there are numerous examples um the first

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thing that just came to mind was just

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putting together

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fundamental questions about

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self-organization if you were varela uh

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you know so autophagus self-assembly

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self-construction if you're a chemist it

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would be self-assembly if you're a

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theoretical biologist

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um you will be wondering about why on

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earth is it that um all multicellular

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organisms form

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because there's a deep paradox there yep

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if it is the case that i have to have a

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surface as a little organ

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then some of myself have cells have to

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stop replicating and yet that is in

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direct contradiction to the principles

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of natural selection i'm going to turn

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off my reproductive capacity my adaptive

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fitness so defined in a theoretical

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context so i just really sit down

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grasping the nettle i'm thinking about

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well these things exist

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what principles could possibly explain

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the paradoxes were looked at from sort

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of the unilateral the monothematic view

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of natural selection for example or the

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monothematic view of self-organization

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in physics so thinking out of the box

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literally in this instance um entails

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being able to take multiple perspectives

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on a particular problem and seeing the

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contradictions and seeing how they can

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be resolved now they'll be one of many

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examples uh look there was a paper like

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i'm afraid i can't remember the specific

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one perhaps mike and chris will be able

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to enlighten me but there was one

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paper

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written i i think about a year or two

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ago where they actually listed i think

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there were 15 basic conclusions about

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the the fundaments and the and the

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the nature of self-organization and self

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as distinct from other uh in any system

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and you know this listing uh

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15 really interesting points and

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predictions all of which either um i'm

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sure will be formally demonstrably

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analytically um

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true uh or

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at least yield or be amenable to a

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mathematical analysis um or would be

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empirically verifiable um over the next

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few years

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what was that

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there was a paper in neuroscience of

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consciousness

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of

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arguing for

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a

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world how did they see the world

283
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:49,600
uh

284
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:52,000
how does it how does e coli perceive the

285
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:54,399
world for example

286
00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:55,279
and

287
00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:57,600
we suggested that

288
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:00,959
the the answer is in in terms of of the

289
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:03,440
sorts of things that we call taste and

290
00:11:10,870 --> 00:11:07,590
but that

291
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:10,880
experiences of taste and viscosity are

292
00:11:16,230 --> 00:11:13,600
perfectly good kinds of experiences

293
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:16,240
and that if we think about

294
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:17,120
how

295
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:20,000
these kinds of systems

296
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:26,550
and solve problems within their worlds

297
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,949
unified understanding of what it meant

298
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:34,560
to be

299
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:37,040
a system that was aware

300
00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:38,800
and so you're trying to

301
00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:40,880
use e coli as a

302
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:43,040
means of understanding yourself or

303
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:45,440
humans by the way is this a project do

304
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:47,120
you feel like your undertaking is an

305
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:48,720
attempt for you to understand yourself

306
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,639
or you're trying to understand humans

307
00:11:54,230 --> 00:11:52,399
like i'm wondering is this more

308
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:54,240
philanthropic or it's selfish and then

309
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:57,440
it bleeds into the philanthropic

310
00:12:03,670 --> 00:11:59,360
well i i actually also want to

311
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:05,670
and b we have

312
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:08,240
we don't have a great understanding of

313
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:11,279
of the lives of other organisms

314
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:12,880
professor levin

315
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:15,360
what puzzle do you find most important

316
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,000
what do you think about on a semi daily

317
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:20,160
basis or even perhaps multiple times a

318
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:22,639
day and then we'll go around the table

319
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:25,040
here with chris fields and carl fursten

320
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:27,440
next and then it's essentially me taking

321
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:28,959
a backseat and allowing you all to free

322
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:30,800
flow just for the audience to know i

323
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:33,440
know you all know this template already

324
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:35,839
yeah um so so the thing i think about

325
00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:38,480
many times a day has to do with the

326
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:40,480
scaling of cognition so i want to

327
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:42,959
understand to two two major things one

328
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:46,320
is how it is that uh some collection of

329
00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:48,560
competent uh parts comes together to

330
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:49,760
form a

331
00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:52,399
an emergent self with preferences goals

332
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,519
memories

333
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,519
cognitive capacities that belong to it

334
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:57,279
but not to the individual parts so i

335
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,720
want to understand how that how that

336
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:00,880
emerges how the goals of uh you know

337
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:03,200
sort of humble um

338
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:04,959
a simple uh simple kinds of systems

339
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:07,360
scale up into much more grandiose goals

340
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:08,959
that we see in during during development

341
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:11,279
during behavior uh you know during uh

342
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,000
culture and and so on and and i'm also

343
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:16,079
very interested in uh the sort of the

344
00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:17,839
left side of that spectrum where does it

345
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:19,680
begin you know is there really a zero on

346
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:22,399
the spectrum i think that uh all of us

347
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:23,680
we here would agree that there is a

348
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,120
spectrum for these things it's not a set

349
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:27,360
of binary categories but what happens at

350
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:28,800
the very left side of the spectrum and

351
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:30,160
so one of the first questions you know

352
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:31,839
when we get to that that um that i'd

353
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:33,920
written down to ask both chris and

354
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:36,079
carlos to sort of comment on

355
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:38,079
what does the what does the venn diagram

356
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:40,079
look like of of the set of things that

357
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,680
are alive versus the set of things that

358
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,839
are cognitive yeah how do those two

359
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,760
categories relate to each other until

360
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,279
they overlap is one a subset of the

361
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,040
other and what really happens at the

362
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:51,120
very beginning you know like

363
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:54,000
can we can we develop a kind of um

364
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:55,760
which which i think i think both of them

365
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,519
have been working on a kind of basically

366
00:14:03,189 --> 00:13:59,519
a kind of pan psychism that doesn't

367
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:03,199
doesn't sort of paint on new cognitive

368
00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:04,959
mysteries on top of physics that works

369
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:07,600
perfectly well but instead to try and to

370
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:10,000
try to view physics from the bottom up

371
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,240
as having already a useful cognitive

372
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:14,320
lens on it and how does that help us to

373
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:16,320
build up cognition so that's that's

374
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:19,519
something that i think about every day

375
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,269
um

376
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:26,949
i i thought

377
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:29,440
every day or almost every day for a long

378
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:30,720
time

379
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,839
about

380
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:33,760
why

381
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,720
we

382
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:36,800
humans

383
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:40,160
see objects embedded in space-time

384
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:44,480
so why do we see things

385
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:46,800
that we treat as independent of each

386
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:48,000
other

387
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,399
and why do we

388
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:52,800
see them operate on them interact with

389
00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:54,240
them

390
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:56,839
as

391
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:59,839
embedded in this coordinate system that

392
00:15:03,189 --> 00:15:02,320
we call space

393
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,199
and

394
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,440
uh equally important

395
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,160
why do we see them as maintaining

396
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:11,040
their identities as things

397
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:13,360
over this other coordinate that we call

398
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:21,269
carl

399
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:22,560
um

400
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:25,440
i have to confess i spend recurrently

401
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:28,320
most of my time thinking about me um but

402
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:30,160
in an academic sense you know how do i

403
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:31,360
work

404
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,240
so

405
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:34,560
it's a curious mixture of

406
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:37,759
introspection and trying to understand

407
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:40,720
why i can introspect uh in from the

408
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:42,320
perspective or through the lens of a

409
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:45,600
physicist so i i spend most of my time

410
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:48,480
dissembling preconceptions the gifts

411
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:52,000
that uh our sentience has given us um

412
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:53,600
and try to

413
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:56,079
reassemble them in relation to

414
00:16:01,030 --> 00:15:58,399
physics density dynamics uh you know

415
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:01,040
that that has to be articulated in terms

416
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,800
of the kind of maths that a physicist

417
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:05,040
would use which would be effectively

418
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:07,360
differential equations and the calculus

419
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,880
of variations

420
00:16:12,069 --> 00:16:11,279
and having done that there are so many

421
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:12,079
um

422
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:16,160
parts but not that many uh but the

423
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,800
combinatorics then lead you to the

424
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:20,639
the kinds of questions that mike was was

425
00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:23,199
talking about so you know what different

426
00:16:27,910 --> 00:16:26,079
ways could this um

427
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:27,920
physics of sentience

428
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:28,880
um

429
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,600
be manifest what possible ways could it

430
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:33,440
be manifest and how does that address

431
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:37,199
the distinction between um things

432
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:40,959
particles creatures um that would show

433
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:43,759
the kind of sense-making and to my mind

434
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:45,680
an important aspect is planning that

435
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:47,920
this would disambiguate them from other

436
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:50,480
natural kinds or particular kinds that

437
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,399
don't have that kind of facility and

438
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,639
what underwrites that um

439
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,320
so that's what i spend most of my time

440
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,959
doing i have to say in conversation both

441
00:17:03,189 --> 00:16:59,759
with

442
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,199
mike and chris and other people um

443
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:06,160
there you can easily get distracted um

444
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:08,959
in in a rightful way um

445
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:09,760
by

446
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:13,199
um thinking about that mechanics in uh

447
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:14,720
exactly what chris was talking to which

448
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,240
is a scale-free way but in my rhetoric

449
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:20,880
that scale freeness speaks more to the

450
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,720
coupling between different scales that

451
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:24,799
mike was alluding to

452
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:26,160
so how does

453
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:28,799
this um mechanics this physics of

454
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:31,039
sentience which which i understand

455
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:33,280
largely in terms of probability theory

456
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:34,080
and

457
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:37,280
effectively bayesian um probability

458
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,720
theory

459
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:40,960
so what you have is a bayesian mechanics

460
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:43,520
how does that basic mechanics apply at

461
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:46,240
one scale and another scale and then of

462
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:47,840
course the big questions is how did the

463
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,320
two scales couple to each other so that

464
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:52,960
that that for me is something that i i

465
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:56,160
find myself increasingly pressed upon

466
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:57,520
largely through conversations and

467
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,400
collaborations um

468
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:02,240
that does mean that i spend a lot of my

469
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,919
time thinking about that and you're

470
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:05,760
writing demos or mathematical equations

471
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:08,240
trying to try to get to the um

472
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:11,280
the uh the underpinnings of it

473
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:13,280
mike i see you nodding so what is it

474
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,200
about what carl said i'm sorry okay

475
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:17,360
professor 11 i apologize and what is it

476
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:18,240
that

477
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,840
feeling like you agree with it

478
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:25,760
well as as usual i mean he said it

479
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:27,760
perfectly i couldn't i couldn't say it

480
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,520
better myself i think that's uh that's

481
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:32,160
that's exactly the kind of um

482
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:34,320
uh research agenda that i'm interested

483
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,160
in i mean that's that really is the kind

484
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,720
of a very good um description of what i

485
00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:40,080
think we're all looking for in a certain

486
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:41,520
sense

487
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:43,280
is there a difference between cognition

488
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:44,160
and

489
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:45,280
consciousness

490
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:47,760
is one distinct is there overlap

491
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:50,000
is someone a subset

492
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,480
i i actually can't conceive of

493
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:54,400
cognition without

494
00:18:56,789 --> 00:18:55,679
consciousness

495
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:56,799
which i

496
00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:00,480
i prefer to call awareness

497
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:02,880
not just to be perverse but because in

498
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,280
many cases

499
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:07,760
consciousness is

500
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:09,840
used in a way that implicitly means

501
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:12,640
self-consciousness

502
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:16,320
whereas awareness is often used in a way

503
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:22,470
and

504
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,799
it's i i find it difficult to conceive

505
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:27,200
of cognition without any kind of

506
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:29,120
awareness at all

507
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,960
so so so could i just so i'll ask a

508
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:32,559
question then based on what what chris

509
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,240
just said and then what when you know

510
00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:36,240
and what carl has to say about it so so

511
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:37,760
what do you think about the so-called

512
00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:39,679
hard problem is there in fact a hard

513
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:42,160
problem at all

514
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,320
i would um

515
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:46,559
i would take andy clark's view on this

516
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,679
uh

517
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:49,440
who has worked closely with david

518
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:51,760
chalmers

519
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:55,440
i i i don't think so no i i i don't

520
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:57,120
think that the hard problem in and of

521
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:58,799
itself is um

522
00:20:03,909 --> 00:20:00,480
is the um

523
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:03,919
interesting um focus of inquiry

524
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:06,720
i think the um the move that i see in

525
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:09,280
philosophy um has been to the meta

526
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:11,840
problem or the meta hard problem which

527
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:12,640
is

528
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:14,559
um as andy clark puts it quite

529
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:17,200
succinctly is why do we spend so much

530
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:20,400
time puzzling about why we are aware

531
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,679
so

532
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:23,679
just asking that question

533
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:24,559
um

534
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:25,840
speaks to i think the nature of the

535
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:27,520
heart problem which is a sort of very

536
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,640
much a second order a meta um a metric

537
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:32,799
capability that we can

538
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:35,760
make sense of our own sense-making and

539
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:39,760
we um associate that with selfhood so

540
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:42,080
one has to ask the question what kinds

541
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:43,520
of systems

542
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:46,240
again i think particles or creatures

543
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:48,720
would have the capacity

544
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:52,559
to represent selfhood and furthermore

545
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:53,760
represent

546
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,760
the counterfactuals

547
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:57,360
that would enable you to ask the

548
00:21:01,909 --> 00:20:59,760
question why am i conscious that

549
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:01,919
immediately just logically presupposes

550
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:04,320
that there is an alternative hypothesis

551
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,400
some other counterfactual that i'm not

552
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:07,440
conscious

553
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,320
so imagine now you're talking to

554
00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:12,960
a creature you're talking to me that has

555
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:15,080
this capacity to imagine

556
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:18,400
counterfactuals that cannot exist

557
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,120
so that's a remarkable capacity to have

558
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,520
you know um from my point of view a sort

559
00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:25,440
of internal world moral regenerative

560
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:26,320
model

561
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:29,440
where counterfactuals can exist is quite

562
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:31,919
remarkable i i don't imagine that a

563
00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:34,640
thermostat or a virus or

564
00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:36,080
an e coli

565
00:21:39,870 --> 00:21:38,000
will have a sufficiently sophisticated

566
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:39,880
set of you know

567
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:43,440
electrochemical uh dynamics or kinetics

568
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:45,039
that would enable them to physically

569
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:46,240
represent

570
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:48,640
counterfactuals of this sort and i could

571
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,159
go on um

572
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,559
the the usual line of argument is why do

573
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:54,240
we have models why do we have the

574
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,120
capacity to represent counterfactuals um

575
00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:00,320
the you end up with saying yes you have

576
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:01,440
to have them

577
00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:02,640
just if you

578
00:22:06,870 --> 00:22:05,360
[Music]

579
00:22:09,909 --> 00:22:06,880
contemplate

580
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,919
things at plan so things plan

581
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:11,600
they have to have

582
00:22:17,029 --> 00:22:14,720
um an ability to simulate the future

583
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:17,039
that because they have to simulate or

584
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:19,919
represent at some elemental level the

585
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:22,080
consequences of their action upon the

586
00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:23,280
world

587
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:25,600
and if they have now the capacity to

588
00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:26,640
represent

589
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:28,320
something that has not yet happened

590
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,799
namely in the future then they now have

591
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,400
the capacity to represent counter

592
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,960
factual outcomes so i think

593
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:36,720
the meta hard problem

594
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:38,559
inherits simply because we have a

595
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:40,080
sufficiently

596
00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:41,520
temporally deep

597
00:22:45,909 --> 00:22:43,039
generative model

598
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:45,919
that can represent the consequences of

599
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:47,679
our actions and of course using the word

600
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:48,559
our

601
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:49,840
implies

602
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,640
some kind of elemental agency and some

603
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:54,159
kind of self-worth because it's only me

604
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,679
that's doing the acting and the

605
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:57,360
consequences of my action not your

606
00:23:02,390 --> 00:22:59,919
action uh so so

607
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,400
in in that sense i think that the hard

608
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,080
problem um

609
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:06,960
sort of pales into into insignificance

610
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:09,200
in relation to the the meta problem of

611
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:16,310
can i pursue that just a little bit

612
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:18,640
i think you raise an extraordinarily

613
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:22,000
interesting point here carl

614
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:22,960
and so

615
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:25,919
i want to ask you

616
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,270
do you think that

617
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,029
organisms

618
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:40,240
that can plan

619
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:42,159
necessarily

620
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:44,559
are able to represent multiple

621
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,960
counterfactuals

622
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,120
so let's give an example

623
00:23:56,230 --> 00:23:52,000
of suppose you're a cheetah chasing a

624
00:24:02,870 --> 00:23:58,549
you're planning your moves

625
00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:02,880
while looking at the gazelle's moves

626
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,480
and your objective is success

627
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:08,240
do you think that the cheetah worries

628
00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:11,120
about the other counterfactual condition

629
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,440
where the gazelle isn't caught

630
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,600
or does it just represent this one

631
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:18,000
counterfactual condition that is in a

632
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:23,510
i think that's an excellent question i

633
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,149
and when i answer these questions i

634
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,640
think how would i simulate this how

635
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:32,880
would i put a cheater in silico

636
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:33,760
and

637
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:35,039
integrate

638
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:36,880
according to the differential equations

639
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:38,640
that must be present under certain

640
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:42,240
assumptions um and my guess is that the

641
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:45,039
cheetah chasing the gazelle would as you

642
00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:47,279
say just be pursuing a path of least

643
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:49,679
action and it would not have an explicit

644
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,640
representation of alternative paths so

645
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:54,480
it would be responding in the moment in

646
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:57,039
a reflexive habitual way so that's a

647
00:25:02,390 --> 00:24:59,200
really important question because if we

648
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,400
don't have or all of our behavior

649
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,720
is just a manifestation of pursuing

650
00:25:08,870 --> 00:25:06,720
those paths of least resistance or

651
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:08,880
mathematically those you know paths of

652
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:10,480
space reaction

653
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:12,960
um then there is no counterfactual to

654
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,440
select from and there is no notion of

655
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:17,520
planning in the sense of i am going to

656
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:20,000
do this as opposed to that but that

657
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:23,039
doesn't mean to say biological organisms

658
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:26,480
um don't have the capacity to

659
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:28,240
plan multiple futures and i'll just give

660
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:31,840
you one real simple example of um

661
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:33,760
your our brains and i would imagine even

662
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,360
the brains of reptiles to a certain

663
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:37,440
extent um

664
00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:40,799
being able to plan multiple um

665
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:43,279
actions in the future and that's in eye

666
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,320
movements

667
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:46,640
so if i just take one of the simplest

668
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:49,360
problems in terms of planning or perhaps

669
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:52,320
not the simplest but one of the um

670
00:25:57,669 --> 00:25:54,720
the the the problems of planning that

671
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:57,679
have to be resolved within um

672
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:59,120
you know several hundred milliseconds

673
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:00,880
given that we have to choose where to

674
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:03,600
look every 250 milliseconds in order to

675
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,600
gather the right kind of information to

676
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:07,600
make you know to construct the scene in

677
00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:09,600
which we are situated and coming back to

678
00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:11,919
your preoccupation chris your you know

679
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:14,559
how on earth do we then explain these

680
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,919
sparse

681
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:16,880
um

682
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,520
uh psychotic samples

683
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,600
within some frame of reference and

684
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:23,760
space-time sort of phrase how do we you

685
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:24,400
know

686
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:26,559
sense make with reference to some

687
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:29,200
constructs such as space and time but

688
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:30,799
the point i'm making here

689
00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:33,919
is the anatomy of um

690
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:35,600
many uh

691
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:38,880
brains many phenotypes does have the

692
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,279
capacity to represent the consequences

693
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,440
of looking everywhere at the same time

694
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:45,760
at once before they have looked so these

695
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:46,799
are sort of

696
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:48,640
sometimes referred to as salience maps

697
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:50,240
and we know that

698
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:51,600
there are good candidates for these

699
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,200
salience maps for example the deep

700
00:26:57,269 --> 00:26:54,960
layers of the superior colliculus and

701
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:57,279
what could have argue um possibly some

702
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:00,720
anatomy of the pulvina so if you look at

703
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:03,520
the um if you like the neuronal encoding

704
00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:07,360
of the salience of where the salience of

705
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:09,919
the next place to look

706
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:13,440
what's going to grab my attention

707
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:15,840
and make that be manifest overtly with

708
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:18,640
an eye movement to go look over there

709
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:21,360
then there you can interpret i think the

710
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,440
anatomy the oculomotor system and

711
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:25,760
especially the um

712
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:28,159
that which underlies uh circadian

713
00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:30,080
control synthetic eye movements as

714
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:31,279
entertaining

715
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:33,919
a whole range possibly millions of

716
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:39,909
plans of action and the consequences

717
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:42,480
and then the brain literally selects the

718
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:44,320
one that's most likely

719
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:46,480
which you can simulate by doing bump

720
00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:48,240
attractors on these sort of salience

721
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:50,559
maps or representations of the the

722
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:53,039
salience of the epistemic affordance or

723
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,399
the expected information again if i

724
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:56,240
looked over here and over here and over

725
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,159
here looked over here you select that

726
00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:00,480
your eyes jump over there and off you go

727
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,320
again so i think it's a great question

728
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:04,240
and in a sense speaks i think to a

729
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:05,520
certain extent to what mike was alluding

730
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,760
to before that there are certain

731
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:09,600
setups or a certain sort of neuronal

732
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,840
electrochemical um

733
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:13,440
infrastructures

734
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,120
out there

735
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:17,840
that can be read as just pursuing

736
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:21,360
passively such action in a reflexive way

737
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:24,240
and there are others that may have this

738
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:26,159
um richer structure this deeper

739
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:29,760
structure that could be uh support the

740
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,640
you know the the the active sentence and

741
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:34,880
the sort of what i i'm reading now is

742
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:38,000
cognition if cognition entails planning

743
00:28:42,149 --> 00:28:39,440
uh then i certainly think there has to

744
00:28:44,149 --> 00:28:42,159
be an act of selection in play here um

745
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,159
selection what does that mean from

746
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:46,320
something from what well multiple

747
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,840
alternatives and then we come back to

748
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,760
the central notion of this this counter

749
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:51,760
factual

750
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:53,200
mike is that what you had in mind in

751
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:55,679
terms of breaking this sort of uh pan

752
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,320
psychism uh sort of trap you know the

753
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:00,320
different kinds of

754
00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:02,320
self-organization

755
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:03,760
yeah i mean that's certainly certainly

756
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:06,000
related you know uh the thing the the

757
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:08,080
thing that i and and so i agree with

758
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:09,120
chris's

759
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:10,880
kind of gut feeling on this i find it

760
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:12,799
very difficult to imagine cognition

761
00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:14,960
without some sort of awareness or or

762
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:17,039
simple consciousness however what what

763
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:18,640
strikes me as

764
00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:20,159
different than real about the hard

765
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,399
problem is that unlike all the quote

766
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:24,640
unquote easy problems and maybe unlike

767
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:26,559
the meta hard problem

768
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:29,039
we kind of know the format or the shape

769
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:30,720
of answers to those questions right

770
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:32,159
they're either they're numbers or their

771
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,399
equations or their lists of capacities

772
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:36,320
you know we we know what what a proper

773
00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:39,279
answer would look like and yet i find it

774
00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:40,799
very hard to imagine if we if somebody

775
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:42,080
claimed to have a

776
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:43,919
a good theory of consciousness and i

777
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:45,679
were to ask them okay well what is the

778
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,200
prediction of your theory in this

779
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,039
particular case i don't know what the

780
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:51,200
format of the answer looks like because

781
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,880
numbers and the typical things we get

782
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,799
don't do the trick they you know they're

783
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:56,720
sort of third person descriptions and so

784
00:30:01,029 --> 00:29:58,880
so is the answer does the answer come in

785
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:01,039
the form of a poem is it art is it you

786
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:02,480
know something you have to literally

787
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:04,320
plug yourself into to then have that

788
00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:06,480
experience like what's the i i find it

789
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:08,880
different because i don't know what if

790
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,880
we had a true a correct theory i don't

791
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,559
know what that theory would output you

792
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:13,840
know unlike for all these other theories

793
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:15,279
where at least we have some idea of what

794
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:20,310
well that's a better answer to the hard

795
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:22,960
problem then that's very good

796
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,279
before

797
00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:27,279
i'm sure the answer is quantum physics

798
00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:28,640
and that's that's what it's going to

799
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,960
look like if we could if we could

800
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:32,960
understand it the answer would be in

801
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,000
quantum physics

802
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:41,750
well i i'd like to to back up a little

803
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:42,640
bit

804
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:43,919
uh

805
00:30:47,510 --> 00:30:45,360
and in a sense

806
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:47,520
play off what carl was just saying about

807
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:48,960
alternatives and the role of

808
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:55,750
i mean chalmers drives his arguments

809
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:58,000
about the hard problem with

810
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:01,919
the alternative of unconsciousness

811
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:03,679
and

812
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:05,760
this alternative

813
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:07,120
makes

814
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:09,679
great sense

815
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:14,399
against the background of a particular

816
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,399
set of assumptions about

817
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:18,720
physics

818
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:20,000
uh

819
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:22,559
which is

820
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:25,760
the assumption that

821
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:28,640
nothing is going on cognitively in the

822
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:30,960
physical world that there's that there's

823
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:33,279
no reason to

824
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:34,960
talk about

825
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,640
uh experience or awareness or anything

826
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:40,559
like that

827
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:48,070
rocks or billiard balls or planets or

828
00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:49,600
electrons or

829
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:51,519
anything else

830
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:52,960
and

831
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:54,320
in that case

832
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:57,919
there is this

833
00:32:06,149 --> 00:32:02,310
that is

834
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:06,159
not really a cut in scale

835
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:06,960
of

836
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:09,440
spatial scale or temporal scale

837
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:13,200
but is in a sense a cut in some measure

838
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:19,269
that suggests that

839
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:20,880
below some

840
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:23,360
cut point which may be a bright line and

841
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:26,480
maybe a fuzzy area who knows

842
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:29,039
there's the possibility

843
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,200
or below some cut point there's there's

844
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:33,679
no awareness at all none

845
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:35,440
zero

846
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:37,360
and above that cut point there's some

847
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:39,600
possibility of awareness

848
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:44,399
and in that case one's forced to say how

849
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:47,440
what what could be added

850
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:51,600
by complexity other than complexity

851
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:54,559
to produce awareness

852
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,880
and it's that intuition i believe that

853
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:58,799
drives the hard problem

854
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:00,320
do you mind explaining that a bit more

855
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:02,559
what can be added by complexity that's

856
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:08,830
well

857
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,880
um yeah

858
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:12,480
and one way to put it is

859
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:13,760
complexity

860
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:17,760
to happen

861
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:19,919
and

862
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,840
it's not clear quite how much complexity

863
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,360
one has to add

864
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:31,760
but as soon as one reaches the the right

865
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,519
amount then

866
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:34,640
uh

867
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:37,360
out of the blue you've got awareness

868
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,159
whereas without crossing that threshold

869
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,960
you you had no awareness whatsoever

870
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,600
so there's a zero point and the zero

871
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:47,279
points somewhere on the scale of

872
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:48,559
complexity

873
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:55,750
so i think one can i can i think one can

874
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,559
view a lot of research on

875
00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:00,240
consciousness

876
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,320
as a way to escape that

877
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:04,240
argument

878
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:05,360
so

879
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:06,480
i'll

880
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,399
consider integrated information theory

881
00:34:14,869 --> 00:34:12,399
oh

882
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,879
in integrated information theory the

883
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:16,879
criterion for

884
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:19,040
consciousness or awareness

885
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:22,399
is actually very simple you you need to

886
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,440
have an internal feedback loop

887
00:34:29,909 --> 00:34:27,919
and if you've got an internal feedback

888
00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:29,919
loop you're at least a candidate for

889
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:31,760
being aware

890
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:33,200
as long as you're not embedded in

891
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:35,040
something bigger that has bigger

892
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,629
and

893
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:43,750
if one

894
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:50,310
the work of peter strawson for example

895
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:54,000
from a philosophical perspective

896
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,240
his arguments toward

897
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:58,240
pansysm

898
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:01,200
are all arguments of the form

899
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,920
there's no way to draw the lie

900
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:05,040
in the

901
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:07,839
scale of complexity

902
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:11,440
and get a place where

903
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:16,640
magic basically plausibly happens

904
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,079
so

905
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:19,920
i think i think chalmers did a real

906
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:21,520
service in in

907
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:23,200
posing the problem in that way because

908
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:27,520
it forced us to think about this idea of

909
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:30,000
magic or you could call it emergence if

910
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:31,839
you wanted to

911
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:34,560
of something completely new that was

912
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:43,030
now i i do agree with carl that

913
00:35:49,349 --> 00:35:45,440
quantum theory can help us

914
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,710
uh by by being in effect a theory that's

915
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:58,230
but we can we can get to that farther

916
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:59,680
down the road

917
00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:00,880
do you have any reason to believe that

918
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:02,640
we're embedded in something larger you

919
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:03,599
mentioned in

920
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:06,240
iit there's the feedback loop that is

921
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:09,040
necessary for consciousness and you said

922
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:10,480
that

923
00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:12,160
one is conscious as long as one is not

924
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:14,480
embedded in something else that's

925
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,240
of which that is conscious like there's

926
00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:18,000
a larger feedback loop there

927
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:19,359
do you see there being some larger

928
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:21,040
feedback loop some people say the

929
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:23,359
universe itself is conscious or that

930
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,680
societies can act as some larger level

931
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:27,359
consciousness

932
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:29,040
like with each of us acting as neurons

933
00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:31,280
in some sense

934
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:33,280
well i would certainly wouldn't want to

935
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:36,480
rule that view out a priori

936
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:37,920
i mean it's it's obvious that we're

937
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:41,839
embedded in much bigger systems

938
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:42,800
and

939
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:46,960
essentially nothing about the cognitive

940
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:49,440
capacities of those systems

941
00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:51,200
yeah

942
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:53,200
michael

943
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,800
yeah yeah i think i think that's a

944
00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:56,560
really important question and i i think

945
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:59,200
a lot about the perspective of let's say

946
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:00,560
you know if you were a neural network or

947
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,160
something like this being trained and so

948
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,880
on what would the perspective of a sub

949
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,880
component of that be what you know let's

950
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:08,880
say if you had the capacity as a neuron

951
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:11,359
to sort of look around and ask yourself

952
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:12,960
you know do i do i live in a cold

953
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,400
mechanical universe that doesn't care

954
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,520
what happens or uh is there some some

955
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,760
sort of uh agency in my environment that

956
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:21,839
you know am i when i'm as a piece of

957
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:24,160
that network am i am i learning from my

958
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:26,079
environment or am i being trained right

959
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:27,280
because when you're being trained right

960
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:28,800
the real question is like how many how

961
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:30,560
many um agents are there in that

962
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,480
interaction is it just you learning as

963
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:34,160
you will you're the boss and you're sort

964
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:35,359
of learning whatever from your

965
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,960
environment or are you actually being

966
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,320
trained because the environment is an

967
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,160
agent with an agenda that is training

968
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:42,000
you for some particular purpose right

969
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,079
and so so this question of uh how would

970
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,920
you know so so you look around and you

971
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:47,599
see you say to yourself well

972
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:48,880
if you're a piece of this of this

973
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:50,480
network and it's being trained for some

974
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,400
image image recognition task you know

975
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:54,480
you you would be i think wrong to come

976
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:56,000
to the conclusion that you live in a in

977
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,520
a mechanical universe you would you

978
00:38:01,270 --> 00:37:59,200
should come to the conclusion that it's

979
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:01,280
actually it's clearly rewarding you and

980
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:03,440
punishing you for for specific things

981
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:05,359
it's not neutral with respect to what

982
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,040
you do and for some reason it really

983
00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:08,960
likes it when you find you know you find

984
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:10,960
um pictures of dog eyes or something

985
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,480
like this and you have no idea that what

986
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:14,240
what it does is recognize dog faces out

987
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:15,760
of you know all the other all the other

988
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:16,880
inputs so

989
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:18,800
no doubt there's some kind of gerdelian

990
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:20,960
limit to to be able to actually

991
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:22,640
understand what the larger system is

992
00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:25,520
doing but i wonder if we can even have

993
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:27,760
some evidence that uh just just for the

994
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:29,760
fact that yes there is a greater you

995
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:32,240
know sort of a agential dynamic going on

996
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:33,520
in which i'm caught up even if you're

997
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,359
not able to you know sort of comprehend

998
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:36,880
what that's going to what that's going

999
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:38,640
to be i i don't know i don't know what

1000
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:39,680
that's going to look like but i think

1001
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:41,040
it's pretty important and i think as

1002
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:44,240
chris said we really don't have a very

1003
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:46,560
good science at all of

1004
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,839
trying to predict or control

1005
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:52,079
the cognitive capacities of systems made

1006
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,400
up of parts so so we can know many

1007
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:56,480
things about parts cells robotics or

1008
00:39:00,950 --> 00:38:59,040
whatever and we routinely make these

1009
00:39:02,710 --> 00:39:00,960
larger systems have then and then get

1010
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,720
surprised about what it does or doesn't

1011
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:04,560
do or what what what the goals are going

1012
00:39:08,390 --> 00:39:05,920
to be what goals is it capable of

1013
00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:08,400
pursuing what preferences does it have

1014
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:11,839
this is probably an existential level um

1015
00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:14,560
job for for society is to get a good

1016
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,390
you have done that there haven't you

1017
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,990
well we've started anyway

1018
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:28,230
i mean you couldn't i i would go film

1019
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:28,960
that

1020
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:30,560
i think i think your work would

1021
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:31,760
represent

1022
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,560
a substantive and established um

1023
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,880
formal framework to address exactly

1024
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:38,800
those issues um

1025
00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:41,440
and you can see your embryonic versions

1026
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:44,320
arising in many different fields i just

1027
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:47,200
came back from a meeting

1028
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:49,680
of economists and financiers and they

1029
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:51,280
are trying to make the move from

1030
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:54,000
behavioral economics to cognitive

1031
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,320
economics and they were exactly

1032
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:58,160
addressing these kinds of issues you're

1033
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:59,440
understanding

1034
00:40:01,109 --> 00:40:00,240
the

1035
00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:01,119
um

1036
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:03,520
the notion of distributed cognition in a

1037
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:07,040
market um so you know and ultimately

1038
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:08,640
that they cannot they'll come knocking

1039
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,960
at your door i can see that i can see

1040
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:12,240
exactly the

1041
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:14,640
sequence of people um you know searching

1042
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,720
around for people to talk about um

1043
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:18,160
illuminating

1044
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:20,800
that realization that the i mean it

1045
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:22,160
comes back to what we were talking about

1046
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:23,760
before where you've started and you know

1047
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:25,839
i was picking up on the um

1048
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,240
on the the link between different scales

1049
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,240
of self-organization where every scale

1050
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:32,319
has you know complies with the same

1051
00:40:34,950 --> 00:40:33,520
principles but how does that

1052
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:34,960
contextualize and i think one really

1053
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:36,160
interesting

1054
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:38,480
example of that um

1055
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,200
is to think about an individual in an

1056
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:44,000
ensemble or a society and just to

1057
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:46,000
wrestle the argument back to pick up on

1058
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:47,280
something that chris was saying about

1059
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:48,079
you know

1060
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:51,760
between

1061
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,240
the kind of

1062
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:57,359
mechanics that would qualify

1063
00:41:02,150 --> 00:40:59,119
as

1064
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:02,160
conscious in the sense of being

1065
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:04,480
self-aware and i'm distinguishing that

1066
00:41:09,270 --> 00:41:06,800
from the kind of consciousness that

1067
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,280
would just entail qualitative experience

1068
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,040
you know a loss of phenomenal uh

1069
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:13,520
transparency so i'm talking about now

1070
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:16,319
self-awareness is you know one of one of

1071
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:19,040
the bright lines that may be very blurry

1072
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:21,599
blurry and vague but certainly one which

1073
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:25,119
is induced by uh the hard problem

1074
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:27,440
you know just asking a simple question

1075
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:30,560
your what kind of explanation for my

1076
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:33,599
world whether i'm a single neuron or a

1077
00:41:36,550 --> 00:41:35,040
single person

1078
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:36,560
and would

1079
00:41:43,030 --> 00:41:39,440
enable me or justify

1080
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:43,040
the notion that i am myself

1081
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:45,680
and the obvious answer is

1082
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,680
when i have to disambiguate between the

1083
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:49,359
consequences of my action and your

1084
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:51,920
action if you are very similar to me

1085
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,200
so if i

1086
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:55,280
you know managed to survive in on an

1087
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,640
alien planet

1088
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:58,880
where there are no structures like like

1089
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:01,040
me that could cause the same sense to

1090
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:02,960
consequences

1091
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,520
then there would be no problem inferring

1092
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:07,680
did i cause that or did you cause that

1093
00:42:14,390 --> 00:42:11,119
so just having um the existence of a

1094
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,400
population of con specifics in some sort

1095
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,720
of formal structural sense

1096
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:19,040
suddenly induces the inference problem

1097
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:21,040
did you cause that do i cause that and

1098
00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:22,800
of course that naturally calls for

1099
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:25,359
generative models or internal dynamics

1100
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:27,440
representations on the inside

1101
00:42:30,550 --> 00:42:28,240
um

1102
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:30,560
that entertain the hypothesis on the

1103
00:42:36,069 --> 00:42:33,040
notion that that's me

1104
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:36,079
as opposed to not me so you get for free

1105
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:38,240
in and only in this context where you've

1106
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:40,720
put lots of these particles together

1107
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:42,400
like you know the

1108
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:43,680
if you like the license or the

1109
00:42:51,030 --> 00:42:47,520
motivation to have a hypothesis um you

1110
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:51,040
know a representation of selfhood um

1111
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:53,040
that you know from the statisticians

1112
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:54,480
point of view

1113
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:55,920
is exactly

1114
00:42:59,910 --> 00:42:57,839
the justification for the increased

1115
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:59,920
complexity that chris was talking about

1116
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:01,440
so i was listening to that really

1117
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:05,280
interesting sort of uh um sort of

1118
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:07,680
nod to iit and all it brings to the

1119
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:10,000
table in terms of this sort of you know

1120
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:13,440
commitment to some threshold crossing or

1121
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,520
trans traversing a cut

1122
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:18,079
with increasing complexity but why i

1123
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:21,200
mean one simple answer is that um

1124
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,119
you know if you ask a statistician what

1125
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:25,680
is complexity and they'll tell you well

1126
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:28,079
um it's basically the degrees of freedom

1127
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:31,119
you're using up to explain some sensory

1128
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,319
data

1129
00:43:36,790 --> 00:43:34,880
um you could articulate it as a kl or

1130
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,800
relative entry between a posterior prior

1131
00:43:40,470 --> 00:43:38,720
if you're a bayesian but in essence it's

1132
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:40,480
just the degrees of freedom

1133
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:44,079
you're um using in order to accurately

1134
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,000
explain these data

1135
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:48,560
so mathematically the evidence is equal

1136
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:51,200
to the accuracy minus the complexity so

1137
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:53,440
why would you need what why why is that

1138
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:56,160
useful well an increase in complexity

1139
00:44:02,309 --> 00:43:57,119
license

1140
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:02,319
accuracy so the simple argument would go

1141
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:04,160
and if i am

1142
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:07,680
obliged to model and predict and explain

1143
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:08,960
a world

1144
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:11,200
and that is constituted by other things

1145
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:12,800
like me

1146
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:14,800
then the accuracy of my predictions will

1147
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:17,359
be greatly enhanced if i have a

1148
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:19,599
representation of me as distinct from

1149
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:20,480
you

1150
00:44:26,069 --> 00:44:23,440
and if that entails an increase in the

1151
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:26,079
degrees of freedom namely adding in this

1152
00:44:29,349 --> 00:44:27,680
extra kind of a hypothesis and

1153
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:29,359
everything that it entails

1154
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:30,160
then

1155
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,960
i'm going to have a greater complexity

1156
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:34,880
but it's a complexity that is more than

1157
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:37,920
paid for by the uh by the increase

1158
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:40,079
increase in the accuracy

1159
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:41,520
and i you know

1160
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,760
just coming back to you know my original

1161
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:45,119
point um

1162
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:47,440
yeah i think a lot of the work um that

1163
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:50,720
you've done at the cellular level

1164
00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:51,520
um

1165
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:53,760
would be very gracefully translated to

1166
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:55,599
the societal level and to things like

1167
00:45:01,109 --> 00:44:57,280
economics and to

1168
00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:01,119
echo niche construction and in ethology

1169
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:03,680
and i know chris is probably wanting to

1170
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:04,960
say this

1171
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:07,599
but language has one way of facilitating

1172
00:45:12,550 --> 00:45:10,000
that notion that ability to

1173
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:12,560
um to efficiently with minimum

1174
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:15,119
complexity in this instance um

1175
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,200
do this distributed cognition so i'm

1176
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:19,280
both trained being trained and learning

1177
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,800
at the same time and we're doing it

1178
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:22,480
together to invent some kind of

1179
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:25,040
generalized synchrony

1180
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:28,800
so i mentioned language for chris there

1181
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:30,480
the font hope he wants to pick that one

1182
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:32,960
up

1183
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:33,760
oh

1184
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:35,760
well well again what i'd actually like

1185
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:38,160
to do is back up a little bit

1186
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:41,200
and uh put some of what you just said

1187
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:42,560
into

1188
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:46,880
very simple active inference language

1189
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:49,440
if if i see something happening

1190
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:52,560
on my markov blanket on my interface

1191
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:55,040
with the world

1192
00:46:02,630 --> 00:45:59,119
then i always have the question

1193
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,640
did i do that or did the world do that

1194
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:04,720
where the world means everything outside

1195
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,270
and

1196
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:11,040
in a sense

1197
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:14,319
the answer is always the world did it so

1198
00:46:19,270 --> 00:46:16,800
the question becomes

1199
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:19,280
did the world do that in response to

1200
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:21,760
something i did to it

1201
00:46:27,190 --> 00:46:24,400
or did it just do it

1202
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:27,200
not not in consequence of any of my

1203
00:46:31,589 --> 00:46:29,599
actions

1204
00:46:34,390 --> 00:46:31,599
and so one gets immediately to this kind

1205
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:34,400
of babbling scenario that we've talked

1206
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:36,960
about many times

1207
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:38,160
in which

1208
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:41,599
an infant or a robot or some system

1209
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:44,800
is trying to figure out

1210
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:46,000
by

1211
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:48,720
measuring correlations

1212
00:46:53,349 --> 00:46:50,160
whether

1213
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:53,359
the world's inputs to it have anything

1214
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:57,760
to do with its inputs to the world

1215
00:46:59,510 --> 00:46:58,640
and

1216
00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:59,520
just

1217
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,440
asking that question

1218
00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:03,520
requires enormous

1219
00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:10,630
because one has to represent one's

1220
00:47:16,150 --> 00:47:12,560
actions

1221
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:16,160
and represent them pretty well in time

1222
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:19,359
and one has to

1223
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:21,839
have a good memory

1224
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:24,240
to represent enough actions to get any

1225
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:26,240
kind of statistical support for drawing

1226
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:29,359
an inference about correlation

1227
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:31,599
and

1228
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:33,920
that memory has to

1229
00:47:41,670 --> 00:47:38,720
be represented as a memory

1230
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:41,680
uh not just part of one's own current

1231
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:44,079
input

1232
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:45,599
so i think this

1233
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:47,839
question that you

1234
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:49,280
posed

1235
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:53,359
is really the key question faced by any

1236
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:54,880
agent at all

1237
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:57,119
that's trying to get a model off the

1238
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:58,720
ground

1239
00:48:03,349 --> 00:47:59,599
which

1240
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:03,359
question that mike asked early early on

1241
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,800
about how does this all start

1242
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:07,920
uh

1243
00:48:14,230 --> 00:48:11,440
maybe it starts with babbling

1244
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:14,240
in very simple systems

1245
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,800
you know i i was thinking recently uh

1246
00:48:20,549 --> 00:48:18,640
this this this whole issue of how many

1247
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:20,559
agents are there and where is the border

1248
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:21,920
between the agent and the world and how

1249
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:24,160
do you self-model that border is is a

1250
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,599
fascinating topic and there's a there's

1251
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:27,200
an amazing um

1252
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:29,440
developmental model for this which is

1253
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:30,960
which is that you know we often talk

1254
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:32,800
about one embryo and the embryo does

1255
00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:34,000
this in the embryo does that but

1256
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:36,000
actually what happens at the beginning

1257
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:38,000
let's say for example an amniote embryos

1258
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,160
is that there's a there's a flat blasted

1259
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:42,240
disc which has just a few cell layers

1260
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:43,440
thick so it's kind of think of it like a

1261
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:44,800
like a frisbee and it just has a few

1262
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:45,920
cell layers

1263
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,079
and normally what has to happen is that

1264
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:51,040
one point in this in this disc breaks

1265
00:48:55,109 --> 00:48:53,440
symmetry and then organizes the primary

1266
00:48:56,790 --> 00:48:55,119
axis of the first embryo and basically

1267
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:56,800
tells all the other cells

1268
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:58,480
don't do it because because i'm doing it

1269
00:49:02,630 --> 00:48:59,520
and that's how you end up with one

1270
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,640
embryo now that process is very easily

1271
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:04,480
perturbed and and i many people have

1272
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,839
done it i used to do it in my in my

1273
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:07,520
graduate work and what you can do is if

1274
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:09,760
you perturb that process that initial

1275
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:11,920
blasto disc that undifferentiated sort

1276
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:14,319
of pool of of cells which are these sort

1277
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:15,520
of proto

1278
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,559
uh low-level proto-proto-agents that

1279
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:20,640
pool can break up into not one embryo

1280
00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:22,319
but actually multiple and so you can

1281
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:24,079
have so i did this in in bird embryos

1282
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,680
and you could have twins and chicken and

1283
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:27,119
duck and things like this you can have

1284
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:28,880
in humans humans have exactly the same

1285
00:49:31,349 --> 00:49:30,000
structure

1286
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:31,359
you can get them head to head you can

1287
00:49:34,630 --> 00:49:32,800
have to get them side by side you can

1288
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:34,640
get all sorts of geometries you can get

1289
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:36,079
triplets you can get multiple

1290
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:38,880
individuals awry emerging by different

1291
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:41,200
partitions of this of this

1292
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:42,480
really kind of

1293
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:44,400
medium this particular medium where

1294
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:46,160
where you have a bunch of cells and you

1295
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,760
don't know ahead of time how many

1296
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,599
individuals at the level of how many

1297
00:49:54,309 --> 00:49:51,760
larger individuals so embryos are going

1298
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:54,319
to arise from this medium because the

1299
00:49:57,190 --> 00:49:55,920
the dynamics by which in that's you know

1300
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,200
local activation and long-range

1301
00:50:01,190 --> 00:49:59,200
inhibition and things like that the the

1302
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:01,200
dynamics that break up that that

1303
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,520
undifferentiated ocean of of potential

1304
00:50:08,549 --> 00:50:06,079
selves into one two or three or more

1305
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:08,559
selves is actually um it's very dynamic

1306
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,800
it can it can go different ways

1307
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:12,480
and then you get interesting interesting

1308
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,160
things like this so for example you

1309
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:16,400
might know that human conjoined twins

1310
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:17,920
that are you know sort of stuck together

1311
00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:20,240
side to side one of the twins often has

1312
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:22,400
left right asymmetry defects and it's

1313
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:24,160
because when you have two twins side by

1314
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,720
side the cells in the middle both twins

1315
00:50:29,990 --> 00:50:28,400
can't quite agree on who they belong to

1316
00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:30,000
are they the right side of this twin or

1317
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:31,680
are they the left side of that twin and

1318
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:33,440
both twins think they belong to them but

1319
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:34,640
in fact they're overlapping they're the

1320
00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:36,559
same cells and so one side will have

1321
00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:38,000
correct left and right the other guy the

1322
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:39,520
other side will have like two rights for

1323
00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:41,280
example right and this ends up this ends

1324
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:43,520
up giving one of the twins laterality

1325
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:44,960
defects with respect to heart and gut

1326
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:47,520
patterning and so so their models each

1327
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:49,839
twins as as the collective of cells

1328
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:52,559
tries to compute uh things like which

1329
00:50:54,870 --> 00:50:53,520
which

1330
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:54,880
where things are and what's left and

1331
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:57,119
what's right and so on their models can

1332
00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:59,200
disagree with each other they can they

1333
00:51:02,470 --> 00:51:00,720
can draw the boundary between self and

1334
00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:02,480
world in different ways and you can have

1335
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:04,240
these sort of disputes over certain

1336
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:05,920
areas as to where who they actually

1337
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:07,040
belong to

1338
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:08,960
and and so so i'm just i'm just

1339
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,480
incredibly interested in this in this

1340
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:12,640
process of of emerging of

1341
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:14,400
individualization so to speak out of

1342
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:16,960
this like ocean of of potentiality these

1343
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:19,440
cells you know 50 000 cells and some

1344
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,079
number of individuals at the um at the

1345
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:24,079
embryo level will be formed and each of

1346
00:51:26,950 --> 00:51:25,520
them will have specific goals in

1347
00:51:29,829 --> 00:51:26,960
morphospace each of them will try to

1348
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:29,839
achieve very specific morphologies uh

1349
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,440
and uh and they've and then you don't

1350
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:33,040
know ahead of time how many there were

1351
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:35,599
going to be you know

1352
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:37,200
carl what occurs to you when you hear

1353
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:38,319
that

1354
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:39,200
um

1355
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:47,030
just thinking about the imperatives for

1356
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:52,470
so

1357
00:51:56,630 --> 00:51:54,800
when i hear that was a fascinating story

1358
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,640
um and don't let me forget we ought to

1359
00:51:59,829 --> 00:51:58,319
explain to the viewers what babbling

1360
00:52:01,589 --> 00:51:59,839
means just in this context as well

1361
00:52:03,270 --> 00:52:01,599
because that's quite illuminating

1362
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:03,280
perhaps we can i'm not sure that the

1363
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:06,480
cells do do motor babbling um but they

1364
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:08,640
certainly resolve um the same kind of

1365
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:11,200
problem um so my um chris correct me if

1366
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:13,760
i'm wrong but by babbling all we mean is

1367
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:15,040
that when you're

1368
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:18,800
first born into any universe you've got

1369
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:19,520
to

1370
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:20,400
um

1371
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:21,599
work out

1372
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:24,079
or test the hypothesis that i cause that

1373
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:26,400
or the world caused that and so you

1374
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:28,079
don't know you don't have a self model

1375
00:52:31,589 --> 00:52:29,359
you don't you know

1376
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,599
whether this is sort of

1377
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:33,920
a declarative model completely so

1378
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:35,520
personal just

1379
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:38,559
hardwired into the um the synaptic

1380
00:52:42,950 --> 00:52:40,960
efficacy and connectivity of your brain

1381
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:42,960
so the first thing you have to do is

1382
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:45,359
just to work out what you can control

1383
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:47,359
and what you can't control

1384
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:50,400
and the idea is that you you

1385
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:52,319
engage in

1386
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,960
what i would call epistemic or respond

1387
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:57,280
to epistemic affordances or epistemic

1388
00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:00,000
plans that reveal knowledge they resolve

1389
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:02,240
uncertainty and in this instance it's

1390
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:05,920
the uncertainty about whether

1391
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:09,359
i was the cause of this rattle rattling

1392
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:13,040
so if you imagine um motor babbling

1393
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:17,440
as manifest in a little baby

1394
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:19,119
rattling its rattle

1395
00:53:25,829 --> 00:53:22,480
generating both the sensations

1396
00:53:27,109 --> 00:53:25,839
from the muscles and the skin but also

1397
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:27,119
the visual

1398
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:30,319
and the auditory sensations all co-occur

1399
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:32,400
providing definitive evidence that

1400
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:34,880
there's something special about

1401
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,520
this process and this event

1402
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:39,200
that um

1403
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:41,520
that provides the basis for the

1404
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:44,400
hypothesis there's a unitary cause

1405
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:45,920
there's a unitary cause which is me

1406
00:53:50,950 --> 00:53:48,559
shaking the rattle but of course it may

1407
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:50,960
take several months if not years to

1408
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,359
actually get there to actually realize

1409
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:55,760
that causes me so what can you imagine

1410
00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:58,559
sort of you know robots learning about

1411
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:00,960
the uh the manipulator that they can

1412
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:03,119
articulate all the the way in which they

1413
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:06,640
can move around and you know um

1414
00:54:11,910 --> 00:54:10,319
for ambulate um but i think the idea

1415
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:11,920
bring it back to sort of where the self

1416
00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:14,880
had come from um

1417
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:16,240
it would um

1418
00:54:20,230 --> 00:54:17,920
rest upon

1419
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:20,240
the testing the hypothesis which has to

1420
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:21,839
be physically represented with a deep

1421
00:54:25,349 --> 00:54:24,160
more complex genetic model and sense

1422
00:54:28,150 --> 00:54:25,359
making

1423
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,160
that in fact it's me that's actually

1424
00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:30,240
caused this single cause of all these

1425
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:32,000
proprioceptive

1426
00:54:37,829 --> 00:54:34,960
motor sensations visual sensations

1427
00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:37,839
auditory sensations um and that would be

1428
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:39,280
especially prescient when you're

1429
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,000
starting to realize that some of these

1430
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:44,720
causes which you thought were you

1431
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,040
of the sort associated with nurturing

1432
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,240
and suckling um were actually due to mum

1433
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,400
and we come back to this argument to to

1434
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:54,400
actually have a good hypothesis which

1435
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:57,520
explains why i am not in charge of mum

1436
00:55:01,589 --> 00:55:00,079
because she is now not always responding

1437
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:01,599
to me when i cry

1438
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:03,839
yeah to have to explain that i have to

1439
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:05,839
now develop a hypothesis yes it was me

1440
00:55:09,829 --> 00:55:07,280
causing all of this

1441
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:09,839
um but sometimes there's something else

1442
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:12,319
else out there that's not me but very

1443
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:14,400
much like me and that's mum and then you

1444
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:17,040
can see how there would be a pressure

1445
00:55:21,270 --> 00:55:18,960
in terms of you know finding the best

1446
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,280
explanations for your sensations to to

1447
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:23,359
have that so if you take that notion now

1448
00:55:26,789 --> 00:55:25,280
think of the same problem uh from the

1449
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:26,799
point of view of a cell

1450
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:29,760
um you know what are the impaired or a

1451
00:55:35,990 --> 00:55:31,520
bunch of cells that have to work

1452
00:55:37,190 --> 00:55:36,000
together or will ultimately form a uh an

1453
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:37,200
embryo

1454
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:38,880
via this process of symmetry breaking

1455
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:40,559
you you know you have to ask what are

1456
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:42,319
the underlying imperatives how how could

1457
00:55:46,950 --> 00:55:45,280
it be any other way um and of course it

1458
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,960
could be more like i said it could be

1459
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:48,799
lots of ways but

1460
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:51,680
the ways the ways in which it goes wrong

1461
00:55:57,349 --> 00:55:54,000
um which would be another way of saying

1462
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:57,359
um those rare occasions or the the ways

1463
00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:00,160
that it doesn't happen in

1464
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,520
consequence of their rarity um involve

1465
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,160
this ambiguity again

1466
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,079
literally in this in the context of some

1467
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:10,000
cells not knowing whether they're

1468
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:12,160
belonging to one twin or or another twin

1469
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:14,559
from the from the cell's perspective

1470
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:15,359
um

1471
00:56:21,510 --> 00:56:19,200
nature of ambiguity and of course you

1472
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:21,520
know it is exactly the same

1473
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,640
um

1474
00:56:25,750 --> 00:56:24,640
one can account

1475
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:25,760
for

1476
00:56:28,829 --> 00:56:26,720
the

1477
00:56:30,549 --> 00:56:28,839
simple observation that

1478
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:30,559
self-organization

1479
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:33,119
does not tolerate ambiguity does not

1480
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:37,200
tolerate uncertainty it's only um

1481
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:40,000
manifest in the context of

1482
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:42,000
accurate and

1483
00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:45,280
well-evidenced definitive uh exchanges

1484
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:47,680
so come back to chris's notion of your

1485
00:56:51,589 --> 00:56:49,119
sense making

1486
00:56:53,109 --> 00:56:51,599
projecting onto my markov blanket or my

1487
00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:53,119
holographic screen from the point of

1488
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:55,440
view of the quantum formulation

1489
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:57,200
that i need to resolve all the

1490
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,040
uncertainty uh

1491
00:57:02,230 --> 00:57:00,960
as much uncertainty as i can but put

1492
00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:02,240
that another way

1493
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,839
um as in a more slightly more

1494
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,200
deflationary way

1495
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:07,520
stuff which we see the way the universe

1496
00:57:10,630 --> 00:57:09,119
seems to work

1497
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,640
is um

1498
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:12,799
can be described as

1499
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,480
um realizing processes that minimize

1500
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:18,319
this this kind of uncertainty and

1501
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:21,760
ambiguity and simply maximize the mutual

1502
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:24,400
predictability of what's being projected

1503
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:27,040
or impressed upon my surface on my

1504
00:57:32,309 --> 00:57:29,520
holographic screen or my markov blanket

1505
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:32,319
uh so i you know that's what i was that

1506
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:33,760
was going through my mind i thought it

1507
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:36,960
was a beautiful example of of you know

1508
00:57:41,829 --> 00:57:40,640
when it goes wrong the the the the the

1509
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:41,839
the

1510
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,960
game and uh and that tells you something

1511
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:48,640
quite fundamental about when it goes

1512
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:50,480
right and when it goes right it's just

1513
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:53,280
basically um a statement of what exists

1514
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:56,400
and what you know what what perseveres

1515
00:57:59,670 --> 00:57:58,240
over time chris did you have anything to

1516
00:58:02,309 --> 00:57:59,680
say to add to that

1517
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:02,319
well i would be interested to uh

1518
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:04,160
to see how actually

1519
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:06,240
how

1520
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:08,880
mike responds to

1521
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:09,760
that

1522
00:58:13,109 --> 00:58:10,960
uh

1523
00:58:16,390 --> 00:58:13,119
discourse with respect to the example of

1524
00:58:19,750 --> 00:58:16,400
this embryonic sheet where

1525
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:19,760
the cells are each trying to figure out

1526
00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:23,680
what they're supposed to do

1527
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:24,640
uh

1528
00:58:30,549 --> 00:58:29,270
there's they're still

1529
00:58:32,470 --> 00:58:30,559
uh

1530
00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:32,480
they still certainly believe that they

1531
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:34,400
should be reproducing so they they

1532
00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:36,480
definitely do that and they signal to

1533
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:37,680
each other

1534
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:39,440
but somehow their

1535
00:58:43,510 --> 00:58:41,119
the collective effect of all of that

1536
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:43,520
signaling to each other

1537
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,319
is to organize different roles for them

1538
00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:49,440
for each for themselves

1539
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:52,400
so how does the symmetry breaking occur

1540
00:58:55,670 --> 00:58:53,760
yeah so so that's that's really

1541
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:55,680
interesting so as i was hearing um carl

1542
00:58:59,990 --> 00:58:57,200
talk about this i realized a couple of

1543
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,000
things that um first of all uh as we

1544
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:02,319
were saying before feedback loops are

1545
00:59:06,309 --> 00:59:04,000
absolutely central to this process

1546
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:06,319
because the easiest way to prevent any

1547
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:07,920
of this from happening and to end up

1548
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,040
with a uh uh um kind of a mono um you

1549
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:13,280
know sort of uh i you know a very a

1550
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:14,799
featureless sheet where there are no

1551
00:59:19,109 --> 00:59:17,040
embryos is to block that is to block the

1552
00:59:20,549 --> 00:59:19,119
positive feedback loop that yeah so so

1553
00:59:22,549 --> 00:59:20,559
that long that that short range

1554
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:22,559
inhibition long range activation that

1555
00:59:26,309 --> 00:59:24,559
says to one cell i'm going to now be the

1556
00:59:28,549 --> 00:59:26,319
organizer i'm going to make this axis

1557
00:59:30,150 --> 00:59:28,559
everybody else don't do it you those are

1558
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:30,160
both feedback loops and so if you break

1559
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:31,520
those feedback loops you get nothing so

1560
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:33,200
so the feedback loops are right at the

1561
00:59:36,470 --> 00:59:35,359
beginning of this process and and the

1562
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:36,480
other thing that that i thought was

1563
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,760
really interesting that carl just said

1564
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:40,960
is about the cells babbling so what i

1565
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:41,839
think

1566
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:43,920
it's a really good name for what we see

1567
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:45,359
when you take a cell and you put it out

1568
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:46,559
into a dish

1569
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:48,400
what you'll see you'll and in fact in

1570
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:50,160
any in any new environment you will see

1571
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:51,839
two things that i think are probably

1572
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:53,920
babbling in different spaces one is that

1573
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:55,599
in physical space you will see that it's

1574
00:59:59,430 --> 00:59:57,520
incredibly active it's constantly

1575
01:00:00,390 --> 00:59:59,440
putting out and pulling back these these

1576
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:00,400
um

1577
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:02,640
kind of extensions so these cytoplasmic

1578
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:03,760
extensions that have all kinds of

1579
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:05,200
sensors on them they're not just sitting

1580
01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:06,400
the cell is never just sitting there

1581
01:00:09,430 --> 01:00:07,680
waiting for something to happen it's

1582
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:09,440
constantly probing its environment it's

1583
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:10,960
incredibly active i'm sure it's taking

1584
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:13,920
all kinds of energy costs to do all this

1585
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:15,440
um there are videos of it that are just

1586
01:00:18,870 --> 01:00:17,440
remarkable on online and you know we see

1587
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:18,880
them every day the other the other

1588
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:20,400
babbling takes place in transcriptional

1589
01:00:25,349 --> 01:00:23,280
space so gene expression is also never

1590
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:25,359
just sort of still and this is you know

1591
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:26,400
these are the genes that are expressed

1592
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:28,079
and i'm just gonna sit here and do that

1593
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:29,760
all the genes are constantly going up

1594
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,680
and down within specific ranges as it

1595
01:00:35,829 --> 01:00:33,520
sort of wiggles in this transcriptional

1596
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:35,839
space and i think both and probably

1597
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:38,079
physiologically metabolically i bet this

1598
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:39,920
is going on in all these other spaces

1599
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,960
and i think babbling is an excellent uh

1600
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:44,559
framework for for understanding what

1601
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:46,160
it's actually doing it's actually taking

1602
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:48,079
these little actions looking for

1603
01:00:52,069 --> 01:00:50,160
evidence of specific things that it can

1604
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:52,079
then make use of to start to draw you

1605
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,480
know to draw boundaries and and as chris

1606
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:56,160
as chris was saying i think what happens

1607
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:57,280
is that

1608
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:00,480
in this blastoderm you get uh

1609
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,559
what what what will happen is that once

1610
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:04,720
once that that individuation starts

1611
01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:06,559
where there's a specific cell that

1612
01:01:12,309 --> 01:01:09,839
starts to go down this road of uh being

1613
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:12,319
the organizer of this new

1614
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,720
larger collective it immediately begins

1615
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:16,720
to distort the action space for all the

1616
01:01:20,789 --> 01:01:18,480
nearby cells it starts putting out all

1617
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:20,799
kinds of signals you know reward signals

1618
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:22,960
and and physical forces and all these

1619
01:01:27,829 --> 01:01:25,040
other things that now

1620
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:27,839
are going to bend the uh the option for

1621
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,440
all the other cells and the best example

1622
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:32,240
of that we have are these xenobots where

1623
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:34,079
these things are just made of embryonic

1624
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:35,920
skin cells and if you look at a standard

1625
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:37,520
old embryo you get this idea that well

1626
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:39,119
what do skin cells want to do they want

1627
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:41,280
to be a passive two-dimensional layer on

1628
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:42,400
the outside of the animal they do

1629
01:01:45,829 --> 01:01:43,760
nothing except sit there keep out the

1630
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:45,839
bacteria you know nice and a boring

1631
01:01:49,109 --> 01:01:47,520
two-dimensional life but what you find

1632
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:49,119
out is that that's only true because the

1633
01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:50,720
other cells are basically bullying them

1634
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:52,799
into it left to their own devices with

1635
01:01:56,309 --> 01:01:54,640
the in the absence of these instructive

1636
01:01:57,750 --> 01:01:56,319
interactions with the rest of the embryo

1637
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:57,760
what they what the skin cells actually

1638
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,039
want to do is get together into a

1639
01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:01,680
three-dimensional uh kind of ball like

1640
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:04,000
architecture they are self-motile that

1641
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,359
you know they'll run around and move and

1642
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,200
do very have various behaviors including

1643
01:02:11,750 --> 01:02:08,880
make copies of themselves if provided

1644
01:02:12,710 --> 01:02:11,760
with materials and so that is completely

1645
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:12,720
um

1646
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:14,559
kind of obscured by standard development

1647
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:16,559
where what you're seeing actually is is

1648
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,160
cells in a space that was really

1649
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:20,480
deformed by by all their neighbors right

1650
01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:22,079
and that's you know that kind of process

1651
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:24,000
that that that starts to devel you know

1652
01:02:26,870 --> 01:02:25,599
make them make those distinctions where

1653
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:26,880
the embryo

1654
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:30,480
parts are inside and what parts are

1655
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:32,720
supposedly outside of itself and that

1656
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:34,480
that gets reinforced by all these early

1657
01:02:41,510 --> 01:02:39,430
carl or chris do you want to jump in on

1658
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:41,520
that i think i think we've been

1659
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:44,240
describing cyclists that says basically

1660
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:48,240
that it's curiosity all the way down

1661
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,640
every system is trying to figure out

1662
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:52,799
what's going on i was struck with that

1663
01:02:56,549 --> 01:02:54,640
with this image of the little cells

1664
01:02:58,630 --> 01:02:56,559
putting out fingers you know this is

1665
01:03:00,870 --> 01:02:58,640
expiration your sort of true blue

1666
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:00,880
exploration and mathematically it's

1667
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:03,839
simply as it says it's um

1668
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:05,520
what

1669
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:09,599
artificial intelligence um research

1670
01:03:13,270 --> 01:03:12,079
aspires to which is artificial curiosity

1671
01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:13,280
you know

1672
01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:14,960
going out there getting the right kind

1673
01:03:18,069 --> 01:03:16,400
of data

1674
01:03:20,069 --> 01:03:18,079
that's going to maximally resolve your

1675
01:03:22,470 --> 01:03:20,079
uncertainty and paint the way the way

1676
01:03:25,589 --> 01:03:22,480
forward and of course it's

1677
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:25,599
intimately related to planning

1678
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:28,480
in the sense you have to um

1679
01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:31,520
realize that palpation you know whether

1680
01:03:36,309 --> 01:03:33,520
it's a little cell palpating whether

1681
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:36,319
it's failure or podia or um whether it's

1682
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:39,119
me palpating my visual world i move my

1683
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:41,359
eyes around or whether it's the

1684
01:03:46,870 --> 01:03:43,280
little baby babbling and palpating it's

1685
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:46,880
cot this this this this palpation

1686
01:03:50,789 --> 01:03:49,119
has to be planned

1687
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,799
it could be planned in the sense of the

1688
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:52,559
gazelle sorry because it's not the

1689
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:55,280
gazelle the cheetah chasing the gazelle

1690
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,160
so it doesn't have to be very

1691
01:04:00,150 --> 01:03:58,319
sophisticated cognitive conscious

1692
01:04:02,069 --> 01:04:00,160
planning but certainly has to has to be

1693
01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:02,079
planned it has to have this sort of

1694
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:05,200
curious behavior um i mean it you know

1695
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:07,280
it strikes me that that is such a

1696
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:10,640
fundamental um aspect

1697
01:04:15,510 --> 01:04:14,240
that i think would qualify

1698
01:04:17,910 --> 01:04:15,520
behaviors

1699
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:17,920
that have that aspect as cognitive in

1700
01:04:21,829 --> 01:04:20,079
some sense and it's so fundamental

1701
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,839
because of course it's it's just an

1702
01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:23,039
expression

1703
01:04:26,710 --> 01:04:24,319
of

1704
01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:26,720
dynamics that apply

1705
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:27,440
to

1706
01:04:30,870 --> 01:04:30,000
um action upon the world

1707
01:04:31,829 --> 01:04:30,880
um

1708
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,839
that

1709
01:04:34,870 --> 01:04:33,520
underwrite

1710
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,880
everything that we do as certainly as

1711
01:04:38,870 --> 01:04:36,960
scientists and one could imagine as as

1712
01:04:42,549 --> 01:04:38,880
human beings but certainly as scientists

1713
01:04:45,109 --> 01:04:42,559
you know that the maths of curiosity was

1714
01:04:47,270 --> 01:04:45,119
was actually worked out um by dennis

1715
01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:47,280
lindley in the 1950s

1716
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:50,160
um in terms of expected information gain

1717
01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:51,680
and then reintroduced by people like

1718
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:53,359
david mckay in the context of active

1719
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:56,000
learning so bringing this active notion

1720
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:58,640
that you can learn by actively acquiring

1721
01:05:03,109 --> 01:05:01,520
the right kind of data that optimizes

1722
01:05:06,870 --> 01:05:03,119
that kind of learning

1723
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:09,750
the principles of optimum bayesian

1724
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:11,520
experimental design

1725
01:05:15,510 --> 01:05:13,200
so it's exactly the same kind of

1726
01:05:17,109 --> 01:05:15,520
curiosity that we as scientists use all

1727
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:17,119
the time whenever we design an

1728
01:05:20,829 --> 01:05:18,240
experiment

1729
01:05:23,829 --> 01:05:20,839
it's basically configuring actively

1730
01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:23,839
configuring some process to generate

1731
01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:26,720
something that can be sensed or measured

1732
01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:27,520
that

1733
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:31,359
or affords the greatest amount of

1734
01:05:34,069 --> 01:05:33,119
information so

1735
01:05:36,309 --> 01:05:34,079
you know

1736
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:36,319
the three of us as scientists uh have

1737
01:05:38,230 --> 01:05:37,359
become

1738
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:38,240
um

1739
01:05:42,950 --> 01:05:41,440
experts at this kind of formal curiosity

1740
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:42,960
simply you know

1741
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:45,599
just by acquiring uh knowledge about

1742
01:05:49,430 --> 01:05:47,599
in the in the particular paradigms or

1743
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:49,440
setups and the fields that we find

1744
01:05:53,029 --> 01:05:51,039
ourselves in the right way to do

1745
01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:53,039
experiments but you could argue that

1746
01:05:56,309 --> 01:05:54,319
that's life

1747
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:56,319
you know in a sense that is the the

1748
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:58,319
infant bubbling uh

1749
01:06:02,069 --> 01:06:00,000
it is you know

1750
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:02,079
that kind of sense making getting

1751
01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:04,480
actively getting the right kind of data

1752
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:06,880
to work out your place in the world

1753
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:09,599
uh to work out what you know what you

1754
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,440
should do next

1755
01:06:17,109 --> 01:06:13,680
is one of the most existentially

1756
01:06:19,109 --> 01:06:17,119
important imperatives um and you know i

1757
01:06:21,029 --> 01:06:19,119
was struck out you know but the

1758
01:06:23,349 --> 01:06:21,039
mechanics that mike was talking about in

1759
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:23,359
terms of the you know

1760
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:25,200
the little skin cells left their own

1761
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:26,880
devices have it having a party and

1762
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:29,039
forming balls and wandering around i

1763
01:06:32,549 --> 01:06:31,280
mean you know one could apply that kind

1764
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:32,559
of mechanics

1765
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:34,720
to people couldn't you or even even

1766
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:36,960
cultures and countries we're all trying

1767
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:38,960
to find our place and we're all trying

1768
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:41,200
to work out how to respond to those

1769
01:06:43,990 --> 01:06:42,480
constraints

1770
01:06:47,670 --> 01:06:44,000
people around us at many different

1771
01:06:51,829 --> 01:06:50,230
put on our behavior and try and infer

1772
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:51,839
well how am i meant to behave in this

1773
01:06:54,549 --> 01:06:52,960
situation

1774
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:54,559
so even if we all start off with the

1775
01:06:59,190 --> 01:06:57,039
same genetic code and the same sort of

1776
01:07:01,430 --> 01:06:59,200
model of you know

1777
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,440
how people behave

1778
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:03,599
the context in which we find ourselves

1779
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:06,000
now needs to be inferred in order to

1780
01:07:09,750 --> 01:07:07,920
have to know how to behave in this

1781
01:07:11,829 --> 01:07:09,760
context either with a child or as a

1782
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:11,839
mother as a politician or as an aid

1783
01:07:15,990 --> 01:07:14,000
worker or a first responder whatever you

1784
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:16,000
want you have to make that inference and

1785
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:18,160
of course that inference

1786
01:07:23,670 --> 01:07:21,280
inferring that context requires

1787
01:07:24,710 --> 01:07:23,680
the curious behavior that

1788
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:24,720
that

1789
01:07:29,109 --> 01:07:26,480
chris had picked up on

1790
01:07:31,029 --> 01:07:29,119
in mike's example

1791
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:31,039
wow could could you know what i'd love

1792
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:33,760
to hear is each of you talk about um

1793
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:34,960
what is the

1794
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:38,720
simplest most basic uh

1795
01:07:41,430 --> 01:07:40,559
thing so you know hopefully going down

1796
01:07:43,430 --> 01:07:41,440
to like

1797
01:07:44,789 --> 01:07:43,440
physics prior to life but but whatever

1798
01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:44,799
you like what is the most basic thing

1799
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:46,319
that is able to do that because that's

1800
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:48,079
what i find in in talking about this

1801
01:07:51,990 --> 01:07:49,760
stuff to other communities the thing

1802
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:52,000
that people are the most resistant to is

1803
01:07:55,829 --> 01:07:54,000
this idea that these kind of dynamics

1804
01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:55,839
this this kind of uh exploration

1805
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:57,760
curiosity prediction all of these things

1806
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:59,680
that we're talking about that you know

1807
01:08:03,349 --> 01:08:01,200
people people think it's it's brains

1808
01:08:05,270 --> 01:08:03,359
first and then you can do all these

1809
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:05,280
these these great things i i would love

1810
01:08:09,349 --> 01:08:07,359
to hear um you know what you think is

1811
01:08:10,789 --> 01:08:09,359
the simplest physical system that can do

1812
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:10,799
that kind of thing so that we can talk

1813
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:18,550
while chris is thinking about that with

1814
01:08:27,910 --> 01:08:25,110
not a trivial answer but a formal um

1815
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:27,920
answer uh i i think it's

1816
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,600
um you'd have to identify the um the

1817
01:08:36,309 --> 01:08:33,679
depth of planning

1818
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:36,319
um that underwrote the

1819
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:38,080
the dynamics of the behavior of the

1820
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:39,679
system um

1821
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:42,400
in question um and that would be

1822
01:08:45,189 --> 01:08:43,679
basically

1823
01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:45,199
if you were putting this in a sort of

1824
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:47,120
path integral formulation it would be

1825
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:50,159
the sort of the the amount of time over

1826
01:08:55,189 --> 01:08:52,640
which you are integrating your paths and

1827
01:08:56,470 --> 01:08:55,199
you're evaluating the best way forward

1828
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,480
um

1829
01:09:02,630 --> 01:08:58,000
once you move

1830
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:02,640
scales

1831
01:09:06,390 --> 01:09:03,600
um

1832
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:06,400
then the depth of that planning i think

1833
01:09:12,990 --> 01:09:09,679
eludes um physical realizations that

1834
01:09:15,669 --> 01:09:13,000
could be written down in terms of um

1835
01:09:18,829 --> 01:09:15,679
representations in terms of

1836
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:18,839
concentrations and

1837
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:23,199
um depolarizations and the like um and

1838
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:25,679
one has to move to a quantum discrete

1839
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:28,719
time representation so you know

1840
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:30,560
i guess i'm basically making the

1841
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:33,120
difference between the sort of um

1842
01:09:41,349 --> 01:09:36,400
the the the kind of dynamics you'd find

1843
01:09:42,470 --> 01:09:41,359
in a uh in chemotaxis or a thermostat um

1844
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:42,480
that could be written down as

1845
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:45,359
differential equations in fact

1846
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,880
the kind of differential equations we

1847
01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:48,960
used in one of those early

1848
01:09:53,829 --> 01:09:50,560
pattern formation papers and knowing

1849
01:09:55,510 --> 01:09:53,839
your place uh approaches um where

1850
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:55,520
everything could be articulated in terms

1851
01:10:00,310 --> 01:09:57,760
of differential equations so that there

1852
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,320
is a kind of planning but it's not of

1853
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:02,159
the curious kind that we talked about

1854
01:10:07,189 --> 01:10:04,480
it's just following the most likely

1855
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:07,199
paths of at least action so i would say

1856
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:08,960
that they're not cognitive in the sense

1857
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:10,960
that they have planning

1858
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:13,760
um so i put chemotaxis and thermostats

1859
01:10:18,229 --> 01:10:16,400
and possibly most viruses probably at a

1860
01:10:21,030 --> 01:10:18,239
precognitive

1861
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:21,040
or proto-cognitive level but as soon as

1862
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:22,320
you get to

1863
01:10:27,110 --> 01:10:24,239
um

1864
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:27,120
generator models that can roll out deep

1865
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:29,679
into the future and i i repeat just when

1866
01:10:34,149 --> 01:10:32,159
you try to implement this in silico

1867
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:34,159
you know using computer simulations you

1868
01:10:38,070 --> 01:10:35,760
really have to move to a discrete time

1869
01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:38,080
representation um which i think is a

1870
01:10:42,070 --> 01:10:40,080
non-trivial thing i mean just for

1871
01:10:45,110 --> 01:10:42,080
example remember the sort of the eye

1872
01:10:47,189 --> 01:10:45,120
movement example yeah we sense make

1873
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:47,199
by getting little snapshots of the world

1874
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:49,440
every 250 milliseconds

1875
01:10:53,669 --> 01:10:52,000
uh it's not like i've got i am a

1876
01:10:55,510 --> 01:10:53,679
thermostat and i'm taking a continuous

1877
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:55,520
record of the temperature that is a

1878
01:11:01,669 --> 01:10:57,760
continuous i'm actually getting

1879
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,679
quantal observations um and i think once

1880
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:04,080
you move to that kind of generative

1881
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:08,000
model or biophysics that entails um the

1882
01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:11,520
gradient flows under that genitive model

1883
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:13,280
then i think you're in a position to

1884
01:11:16,870 --> 01:11:15,040
talk about sort of planning and

1885
01:11:19,669 --> 01:11:16,880
cognition and curiosity of the kind that

1886
01:11:21,430 --> 01:11:19,679
would we're talking about uh so i you

1887
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:21,440
know i'd literally put time constants on

1888
01:11:24,709 --> 01:11:23,280
this i'd say about you know 300

1889
01:11:26,709 --> 01:11:24,719
milliseconds if you've got the ability

1890
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:26,719
to represent the future

1891
01:11:29,430 --> 01:11:28,400
300 milliseconds

1892
01:11:31,189 --> 01:11:29,440
you know

1893
01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:31,199
sorry represent the consequences of your

1894
01:11:35,669 --> 01:11:33,360
actions more than 300 milliseconds in

1895
01:11:39,350 --> 01:11:35,679
the future then i put you in

1896
01:11:41,030 --> 01:11:39,360
having crossed that one of those cuts

1897
01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:41,040
um and

1898
01:11:46,950 --> 01:11:44,080
moved from from being a sort of um yeah

1899
01:11:49,189 --> 01:11:46,960
a virus to you know to to i don't know

1900
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:49,199
perhaps an insect i'm not sure

1901
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:51,440
perhaps you had to go

1902
01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:53,600
are you seriously putting the 300 ml

1903
01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:54,960
seconds forward or like or is that

1904
01:11:57,990 --> 01:11:57,120
facetious

1905
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:58,000
um

1906
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:00,560
it's it's facetious but

1907
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:02,640
but not as facetious as it might as you

1908
01:12:05,750 --> 01:12:04,000
might think

1909
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:05,760
i do think that they're

1910
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:07,280
yeah i think there's a

1911
01:12:15,030 --> 01:12:12,400
there's one way of celebrating the um

1912
01:12:16,709 --> 01:12:15,040
the escapes from pan psychism that we

1913
01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:16,719
started off with when you know when mike

1914
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:18,400
was saying what he spends his time

1915
01:12:22,630 --> 01:12:20,640
talking about one of the ways is to

1916
01:12:24,149 --> 01:12:22,640
commit to vagueness and you know how

1917
01:12:25,910 --> 01:12:24,159
many um

1918
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:25,920
how many grains of sand do i need before

1919
01:12:31,430 --> 01:12:29,120
this is all becomes a pile um and try

1920
01:12:34,149 --> 01:12:31,440
and work out what the uh what the

1921
01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:34,159
quantity is uh that defines that

1922
01:12:37,590 --> 01:12:35,440
spectrum that we were talking about

1923
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:37,600
before uh along the switch there is

1924
01:12:41,910 --> 01:12:39,760
vagueness at some point consciousness of

1925
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:41,920
a certain kind um

1926
01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:44,880
arises um but i also think there are

1927
01:12:49,189 --> 01:12:47,280
natural kinds that actually have bright

1928
01:12:50,470 --> 01:12:49,199
lines between them

1929
01:12:52,709 --> 01:12:50,480
and you know

1930
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:52,719
what i'm saying here and i i don't think

1931
01:12:56,149 --> 01:12:54,239
i said it before and i probably wouldn't

1932
01:12:57,270 --> 01:12:56,159
say it again um

1933
01:13:01,830 --> 01:12:57,280
but

1934
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:01,840
in my experience

1935
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:03,840
qualitatively different kinds of

1936
01:13:08,229 --> 01:13:06,000
generative models that represent time in

1937
01:13:09,669 --> 01:13:08,239
very very different ways you can get so

1938
01:13:12,310 --> 01:13:09,679
mathematically things like kalman

1939
01:13:15,110 --> 01:13:12,320
filters that can be cast or linear

1940
01:13:17,750 --> 01:13:15,120
quadratic control robotics

1941
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:17,760
and the like that can be cast purely in

1942
01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:20,400
terms of futures that are represented in

1943
01:13:24,070 --> 01:13:22,159
terms of velocities and accelerations

1944
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:24,080
and higher order motions that are just

1945
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:25,520
in the dynamics and the equations of

1946
01:13:28,390 --> 01:13:26,640
motion

1947
01:13:30,149 --> 01:13:28,400
uh and you can realize and build these

1948
01:13:31,270 --> 01:13:30,159
things you can simulate them and they

1949
01:13:33,030 --> 01:13:31,280
behave

1950
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:33,040
in a very plausible way you can get them

1951
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:35,440
to do handwriting you can get them to

1952
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:37,040
self-organize and do all sorts of

1953
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:38,400
interesting things

1954
01:13:42,790 --> 01:13:40,480
our thermostat

1955
01:13:44,390 --> 01:13:42,800
but that's um

1956
01:13:45,990 --> 01:13:44,400
that's as far as it goes these things

1957
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:46,000
don't show curious behavior to do

1958
01:13:50,310 --> 01:13:47,280
curious behavior you're really gonna

1959
01:13:51,750 --> 01:13:50,320
roll out much further into the future

1960
01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:51,760
and in running out further into the

1961
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:54,080
future it's very difficult to represent

1962
01:13:57,590 --> 01:13:55,920
the future just using differential

1963
01:13:59,189 --> 01:13:57,600
equations unless you move to very very

1964
01:14:00,950 --> 01:13:59,199
high orders of motion

1965
01:14:03,189 --> 01:14:00,960
and at which point you start to sort of

1966
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:03,199
you know to minimize that complexity

1967
01:14:08,149 --> 01:14:05,040
start to articulate things in discrete

1968
01:14:09,669 --> 01:14:08,159
time and then the maths and so the mass

1969
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:09,679
the new

1970
01:14:14,149 --> 01:14:12,719
the um numerics become much simpler and

1971
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:14,159
doable

1972
01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:15,600
and

1973
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:16,960
then you've got a qualitatively

1974
01:14:20,149 --> 01:14:18,480
different kind of genitive model you

1975
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:20,159
move from a continuous to a discrete

1976
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:22,560
time a quant a quantized generative

1977
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:26,640
model um so that for me is not does not

1978
01:14:30,950 --> 01:14:28,800
allow a vagueness you know there is

1979
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:30,960
actually a natural kind that will

1980
01:14:36,070 --> 01:14:33,280
represent things in the moment in terms

1981
01:14:38,310 --> 01:14:36,080
of flows and dynamics and other natural

1982
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:38,320
kinds that will represent things um in

1983
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:40,719
terms of discrete not universal clock

1984
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:44,320
time but discrete iterations um and i'm

1985
01:14:47,910 --> 01:14:46,080
saying that the you know for for

1986
01:14:50,070 --> 01:14:47,920
certainly our scale of interactions and

1987
01:14:52,070 --> 01:14:50,080
the way that we sense make i would have

1988
01:14:54,390 --> 01:14:52,080
thought 300 milliseconds was not a

1989
01:14:57,189 --> 01:14:54,400
controversial um i say that because

1990
01:14:58,950 --> 01:14:57,199
that's the cognitive moment it's also

1991
01:15:00,870 --> 01:14:58,960
the time interval between the way that

1992
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:00,880
we sample the world not just with our

1993
01:15:03,910 --> 01:15:02,719
eyes but when we sniff

1994
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:03,920
we sniff

1995
01:15:08,070 --> 01:15:06,320
at a frequency which means that each new

1996
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:08,080
sampling of that well that palpation

1997
01:15:13,350 --> 01:15:10,080
with our chemo acceptors and olfactory

1998
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:13,360
receptors is again every couple you know

1999
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:15,440
every 200 milliseconds so suggest to me

2000
01:15:20,149 --> 01:15:17,440
there's a sort of discrete

2001
01:15:22,470 --> 01:15:20,159
belief updating um and it is a discrete

2002
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:22,480
belief updating that is underwritten by

2003
01:15:27,270 --> 01:15:24,880
the way we act the plans have to be in

2004
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:27,280
these discrete chunks of time so that's

2005
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:29,040
where the 300 second milliseconds come

2006
01:15:33,270 --> 01:15:30,800
from you see it everywhere

2007
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:33,280
mice whisking they whisk at that

2008
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,760
frequency so they touch the palpate

2009
01:15:40,229 --> 01:15:37,520
every 300 milliseconds the way i'm

2010
01:15:42,470 --> 01:15:40,239
speaking now every phoneme is reaching

2011
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:42,480
your ears every 300 milliseconds or so

2012
01:15:49,350 --> 01:15:44,159
or

2013
01:15:51,270 --> 01:15:49,360
our biological scale

2014
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:51,280
that's they does seem to be this

2015
01:15:56,149 --> 01:15:53,199
uncharacteristic uh

2016
01:16:00,390 --> 01:15:56,159
timestamp that's purely empirical so you

2017
01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:02,950
the facetious aspect inherits from the

2018
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:05,440
fact that that's that's very egocentric

2019
01:16:09,030 --> 01:16:07,199
it's just for things like me i don't

2020
01:16:11,189 --> 01:16:09,040
know if it's the things like cells or

2021
01:16:13,590 --> 01:16:11,199
quantum physics well it's interesting

2022
01:16:15,590 --> 01:16:13,600
because in physics the number three has

2023
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:15,600
an interesting role in fundamental

2024
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:16,800
physics because there's three

2025
01:16:20,630 --> 01:16:18,239
generations of

2026
01:16:22,470 --> 01:16:20,640
of matter and there's that number three

2027
01:16:24,390 --> 01:16:22,480
crops up and it's a mystery as to why so

2028
01:16:26,229 --> 01:16:24,400
it sounds like the number 300 or 300

2029
01:16:29,350 --> 01:16:26,239
milliseconds a unit attached to it or

2030
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:29,360
neuroscience maybe a a fundamental

2031
01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:31,360
constant so chris

2032
01:16:34,870 --> 01:16:32,560
what are some of the deep thoughts that

2033
01:16:36,790 --> 01:16:34,880
you were having

2034
01:16:38,709 --> 01:16:36,800
well i i was just having a visual

2035
01:16:39,910 --> 01:16:38,719
impression actually when mike was

2036
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:39,920
talking

2037
01:16:44,790 --> 01:16:42,719
and um

2038
01:16:46,070 --> 01:16:44,800
of babbling

2039
01:16:48,070 --> 01:16:46,080
and

2040
01:16:51,990 --> 01:16:48,080
the visual impression was of our our

2041
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,630
and

2042
01:16:57,750 --> 01:16:56,229
when we think of when we think of the

2043
01:17:00,709 --> 01:16:57,760
vacuum

2044
01:17:02,870 --> 01:17:00,719
or at least i think of it

2045
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:02,880
visually as little things popping in and

2046
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:05,600
out of existence all the time

2047
01:17:09,669 --> 01:17:06,880
and

2048
01:17:14,229 --> 01:17:11,590
one can think of that as a as a kind of

2049
01:17:16,390 --> 01:17:14,239
babbling right the the field itself is

2050
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:16,400
exploring what's going on outside of

2051
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:18,640
itself

2052
01:17:21,350 --> 01:17:20,560
that's extremely interesting

2053
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:21,360
by

2054
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:26,310
forming a little entity to go off and

2055
01:17:30,950 --> 01:17:29,120
explore and then report back

2056
01:17:33,510 --> 01:17:30,960
so this is a this is a very different

2057
01:17:35,189 --> 01:17:33,520
picture from the one that that

2058
01:17:36,630 --> 01:17:35,199
carl gave

2059
01:17:37,590 --> 01:17:36,640
in that

2060
01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:37,600
um

2061
01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:39,760
but i suppose it also has a similarity

2062
01:17:42,630 --> 01:17:41,440
or two

2063
01:17:44,709 --> 01:17:42,640
that

2064
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:44,719
when we write down

2065
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:47,760
uh a model of that activity it is

2066
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:49,360
discrete

2067
01:18:00,550 --> 01:17:57,520
even though it's it's modeled in a

2068
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:00,560
continuous space time which

2069
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:04,950
once when digs a little bit deeply the

2070
01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:06,960
continuous space time itself becomes

2071
01:18:11,270 --> 01:18:09,040
discrete

2072
01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:11,280
but

2073
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:13,920
this raises a question for me

2074
01:18:19,189 --> 01:18:17,040
which is another of the things that i

2075
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:19,199
think about a lot

2076
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:21,199
um

2077
01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:24,560
which is the question of

2078
01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:28,159
what we mean by randomness

2079
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:33,750
certainly to take a bayesian point of

2080
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:35,440
view where probabilities are all

2081
01:18:37,990 --> 01:18:36,640
subjective

2082
01:18:41,110 --> 01:18:38,000
uh

2083
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:41,120
it becomes very difficult to say what

2084
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,159
randomness might mean if if used in a

2085
01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:46,320
way that's meant to be objective or to

2086
01:18:51,830 --> 01:18:49,040
refer to something objective

2087
01:18:54,630 --> 01:18:51,840
and we model things like

2088
01:18:58,149 --> 01:18:54,640
fluctuations in the vacuum as

2089
01:19:02,790 --> 01:19:00,709
which from a bayesian point of view just

2090
01:19:05,270 --> 01:19:02,800
means

2091
01:19:07,110 --> 01:19:05,280
it's uncertain to us it represents

2092
01:19:09,430 --> 01:19:07,120
information that we

2093
01:19:13,910 --> 01:19:09,440
don't have and quite possibly can't get

2094
01:19:20,709 --> 01:19:17,750
but if we think of that system

2095
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:20,719
as an agent

2096
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:22,400
then of course you're expected to be

2097
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:24,640
exploring its world whatever it is

2098
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:25,840
whatever

2099
01:19:30,950 --> 01:19:27,360
uh

2100
01:19:34,310 --> 01:19:33,030
and

2101
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:34,320
maybe

2102
01:19:38,310 --> 01:19:35,840
we can really think of babbling all the

2103
01:19:39,990 --> 01:19:38,320
way down as a model of of what's

2104
01:19:42,630 --> 01:19:40,000
happening in

2105
01:19:46,870 --> 01:19:42,640
these phenomena that we

2106
01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:48,390
but we also

2107
01:19:52,470 --> 01:19:50,080
don't typically think of these sorts of

2108
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,480
systems as agents

2109
01:19:55,750 --> 01:19:54,000
this is this is this is incredibly

2110
01:19:57,669 --> 01:19:55,760
interesting um

2111
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:57,679
what i heard what i heard carl

2112
01:20:03,110 --> 01:20:00,400
saying among other things is that there

2113
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:03,120
is a there is a qualitative transition

2114
01:20:07,590 --> 01:20:05,520
when things go from analog to digital in

2115
01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:07,600
a certain sense right from from from

2116
01:20:12,870 --> 01:20:10,560
continuous to to phase and based on what

2117
01:20:14,229 --> 01:20:12,880
chris just said it would just remind us

2118
01:20:15,669 --> 01:20:14,239
to to think about the kind of the

2119
01:20:17,350 --> 01:20:15,679
quantum world where

2120
01:20:19,510 --> 01:20:17,360
at least to my understanding a lot of

2121
01:20:23,110 --> 01:20:19,520
things are in fact uh you know sort of

2122
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:23,120
discrete does that mean that really

2123
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:25,199
could it be that that that is the sort

2124
01:20:30,550 --> 01:20:27,920
of base state as chris just outlined

2125
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:30,560
with with with that kind of uh

2126
01:20:35,189 --> 01:20:32,800
proto-cognitive exploration all the way

2127
01:20:37,750 --> 01:20:35,199
down and that these continuous models

2128
01:20:40,310 --> 01:20:37,760
that we put on top of it by by by course

2129
01:20:41,990 --> 01:20:40,320
graining um you know tiny events into

2130
01:20:44,149 --> 01:20:42,000
the kind of macroscopic things that we

2131
01:20:47,590 --> 01:20:44,159
see here that's that's an abstraction

2132
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:47,600
that sort of loses the essential uh

2133
01:20:50,470 --> 01:20:48,960
mindfulness of it and then we have to

2134
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:50,480
try to rebuild it again by the time we

2135
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:52,080
get to brains but actually all we've

2136
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:54,719
done is obscure the the fact that all

2137
01:20:57,669 --> 01:20:55,920
the way from the beginning it was

2138
01:20:59,669 --> 01:20:57,679
already digital to start with and we

2139
01:21:01,430 --> 01:20:59,679
just sort of put some put some vaseline

2140
01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:01,440
on our lens here you know to make

2141
01:21:04,870 --> 01:21:02,880
everything look um you know sort of

2142
01:21:06,390 --> 01:21:04,880
continuous which then which then made it

2143
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:06,400
look like there was nothing going on at

2144
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:08,320
the lower levels and then somehow we're

2145
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:09,760
we're shocked that we have to recover it

2146
01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:11,760
from from somewhere later on

2147
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:13,040
that that's that's what i just heard

2148
01:21:16,550 --> 01:21:14,880
from the combination of those two

2149
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:16,560
explanations

2150
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:18,320
it's a very interesting idea and it

2151
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:19,840
connects nicely to the history of

2152
01:21:27,270 --> 01:21:21,840
mathematics

2153
01:21:28,790 --> 01:21:27,280
post descartes and leibniz

2154
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:28,800
which was

2155
01:21:34,470 --> 01:21:31,280
all built around the idea of continuous

2156
01:21:36,229 --> 01:21:34,480
functions and analysis and calculus and

2157
01:21:38,550 --> 01:21:36,239
so on

2158
01:21:40,830 --> 01:21:38,560
very very nice convenient mathematics to

2159
01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:40,840
use

2160
01:21:49,189 --> 01:21:44,080
but uh

2161
01:21:52,470 --> 01:21:50,950
carl did you have any thoughts to add to

2162
01:21:52,860 --> 01:21:52,480
that

2163
01:21:54,149 --> 01:21:52,870
um

2164
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:54,159
[Music]

2165
01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:56,639
yeah i i'd probably um

2166
01:22:00,310 --> 01:21:58,719
this is why i wanted to hang out with

2167
01:22:01,430 --> 01:22:00,320
with mike and chris to learn about

2168
01:22:02,950 --> 01:22:01,440
quantum theory because i do think

2169
01:22:04,149 --> 01:22:02,960
there's something fundamental about this

2170
01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:04,159
sort of

2171
01:22:07,910 --> 01:22:05,920
the way that we carve up the world or

2172
01:22:10,709 --> 01:22:07,920
the world the way the world can only be

2173
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:10,719
defined in a carved way into tiles or

2174
01:22:13,110 --> 01:22:11,760
quantum

2175
01:22:13,910 --> 01:22:13,120
discrete things

2176
01:22:20,470 --> 01:22:13,920
um

2177
01:22:22,950 --> 01:22:20,480
observations that we just heard i think

2178
01:22:24,390 --> 01:22:22,960
are quite fundamental um and it would be

2179
01:22:25,189 --> 01:22:24,400
great to understand

2180
01:22:26,950 --> 01:22:25,199
um

2181
01:22:28,870 --> 01:22:26,960
everything from the sort of cultural

2182
01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:28,880
perspective a discretized perspective

2183
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:31,199
and how continuous constructs rights you

2184
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,040
know space and time emerge from that um

2185
01:22:40,950 --> 01:22:37,440
you know if necessary um

2186
01:22:44,149 --> 01:22:40,960
having said that um i have to say that

2187
01:22:46,229 --> 01:22:44,159
um as a physicist i would bring

2188
01:22:47,510 --> 01:22:46,239
something else to the table so i'm quite

2189
01:22:49,830 --> 01:22:47,520
comfortable dealing with random

2190
01:22:52,229 --> 01:22:49,840
fluctuations so for me random

2191
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:52,239
fluctuations are just variables that

2192
01:22:55,830 --> 01:22:54,000
change very very quickly

2193
01:22:58,709 --> 01:22:55,840
so if i want to write down

2194
01:23:00,070 --> 01:22:58,719
um as a physicist so now i don't talk

2195
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,080
about a physicist that doesn't know

2196
01:23:04,149 --> 01:23:02,560
anything about quantum mechanics um so i

2197
01:23:06,950 --> 01:23:04,159
just want to write down a launchvan

2198
01:23:09,350 --> 01:23:06,960
equation to describe my universe um i

2199
01:23:10,950 --> 01:23:09,360
write it as a mixture of states and

2200
01:23:12,709 --> 01:23:10,960
random fluctuations and somebody asked

2201
01:23:14,470 --> 01:23:12,719
me what licenses i just saw the

2202
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:14,480
manufacturations are very very quick and

2203
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:17,520
the uh the states are very very slow um

2204
01:23:20,629 --> 01:23:19,440
and this is just a natural consequence

2205
01:23:25,030 --> 01:23:20,639
of

2206
01:23:26,470 --> 01:23:25,040
know i i could

2207
01:23:28,790 --> 01:23:26,480
make them even slower by going to the

2208
01:23:31,189 --> 01:23:28,800
next stage scale and throw each and even

2209
01:23:33,030 --> 01:23:31,199
more fast stuff so there's nothing

2210
01:23:35,110 --> 01:23:33,040
really if you like

2211
01:23:36,629 --> 01:23:35,120
problematic uh from the point of view of

2212
01:23:40,390 --> 01:23:36,639
that kind of physicist

2213
01:23:42,870 --> 01:23:40,400
um in in the random fluctuations um

2214
01:23:45,030 --> 01:23:42,880
uh it just means that all the

2215
01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:45,040
stuff that determines flows and dynamics

2216
01:23:50,310 --> 01:23:47,199
of the kind that we can

2217
01:23:52,229 --> 01:23:50,320
that we engage with and we can plan um

2218
01:23:54,870 --> 01:23:52,239
has a particular form

2219
01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:54,880
that particular form um

2220
01:24:00,470 --> 01:23:56,320
does actually

2221
01:24:03,110 --> 01:24:00,480
bring a quantal aspect um to the table

2222
01:24:05,669 --> 01:24:03,120
or a discretization aspect of the table

2223
01:24:07,430 --> 01:24:05,679
that may or may not be if you like

2224
01:24:08,790 --> 01:24:07,440
explained away or absorbed into a

2225
01:24:10,390 --> 01:24:08,800
quantum information theoretical

2226
01:24:11,990 --> 01:24:10,400
treatment but what i'm talking about

2227
01:24:14,950 --> 01:24:12,000
here

2228
01:24:16,709 --> 01:24:14,960
are the mathematical image of light

2229
01:24:17,990 --> 01:24:16,719
life cycles and biorhythms and

2230
01:24:20,229 --> 01:24:18,000
oscillations

2231
01:24:22,310 --> 01:24:20,239
and i mean that right from the other the

2232
01:24:25,189 --> 01:24:22,320
perspective of a dendrite in my

2233
01:24:27,750 --> 01:24:25,199
hippocampus oscillating away at a fast

2234
01:24:30,470 --> 01:24:27,760
gamma frequency you know sort of

2235
01:24:32,390 --> 01:24:30,480
say 80 hertz through to the

2236
01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:32,400
the motion of the heavenly bodies

2237
01:24:37,270 --> 01:24:35,040
wherever you look you get the this

2238
01:24:38,070 --> 01:24:37,280
solenoidal flow

2239
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:38,080
um

2240
01:24:42,310 --> 01:24:40,080
that is characteristic of things that

2241
01:24:45,189 --> 01:24:42,320
hang around and don't dissipate almost

2242
01:24:46,790 --> 01:24:45,199
immediately um and these are not part of

2243
01:24:48,550 --> 01:24:46,800
the random flute version but they become

2244
01:24:51,669 --> 01:24:48,560
more evident as you go away from the

2245
01:24:55,910 --> 01:24:51,679
fast random stuff into the slow um the

2246
01:24:59,350 --> 01:24:55,920
slow uh dynamics um in the sense that

2247
01:25:01,030 --> 01:24:59,360
you know clearly uh the orbit of the

2248
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:01,040
moon around

2249
01:25:04,709 --> 01:25:02,480
well the orbit of the earth around the

2250
01:25:06,790 --> 01:25:04,719
sun for example this deals with very

2251
01:25:08,229 --> 01:25:06,800
very massive large things where all the

2252
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:08,239
random fluctuations are effectively

2253
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:10,800
averaged to zero um whereas if you go

2254
01:25:15,030 --> 01:25:12,639
down to the quantum scale

2255
01:25:17,990 --> 01:25:15,040
um then you know you're not licensed to

2256
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:18,000
do that and these solenoidal flows um

2257
01:25:22,390 --> 01:25:20,560
become much less um much less apparent

2258
01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:22,400
but our scale

2259
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:25,679
if we uh if life is um

2260
01:25:33,350 --> 01:25:29,199
on this reading of physics um

2261
01:25:35,510 --> 01:25:33,360
sufficiently classical to have um

2262
01:25:37,590 --> 01:25:35,520
oscillations biorhythms

2263
01:25:39,830 --> 01:25:37,600
um things that would you need for

2264
01:25:42,149 --> 01:25:39,840
feedback that didn't go off to plus or

2265
01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:42,159
minus infinity for example just saying

2266
01:25:46,790 --> 01:25:44,480
that you're keeping you're circulating

2267
01:25:49,030 --> 01:25:46,800
in some states or phase space

2268
01:25:51,110 --> 01:25:49,040
in a way that you keep yourself to some

2269
01:25:52,870 --> 01:25:51,120
attracting set and as you move through

2270
01:25:54,470 --> 01:25:52,880
this you are naturally going to be

2271
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,480
oscillating

2272
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:56,159
in a highly non-linear possibly chaotic

2273
01:26:02,390 --> 01:26:00,159
way but still the essence is life cycles

2274
01:26:05,350 --> 01:26:02,400
if that's the case then the poncharis

2275
01:26:07,189 --> 01:26:05,360
section does indeed permit a description

2276
01:26:08,709 --> 01:26:07,199
that is necessarily discretized in the

2277
01:26:10,950 --> 01:26:08,719
sense you're going to pass through the

2278
01:26:14,790 --> 01:26:10,960
neighborhood of various states and

2279
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:16,229
recurrently

2280
01:26:18,229 --> 01:26:17,040
so

2281
01:26:20,229 --> 01:26:18,239
that's what i was thinking from the

2282
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:20,239
point of view of a physicist who does

2283
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:21,600
not have the fluency of quantum

2284
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:24,080
mechanics to get back to a discrete

2285
01:26:29,030 --> 01:26:26,639
thing but it also i think um

2286
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:29,040
highlights the um

2287
01:26:35,750 --> 01:26:32,159
the deep connection between

2288
01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:35,760
things recurring discretely or occurring

2289
01:26:44,390 --> 01:26:42,470
being one way of defining another

2290
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:44,400
characteristic of

2291
01:26:50,310 --> 01:26:46,960
biological self-organization which is

2292
01:26:51,510 --> 01:26:50,320
basically the repeat biorhythms and life

2293
01:26:53,830 --> 01:26:51,520
cycles

2294
01:26:55,430 --> 01:26:53,840
that have this sort of self-contained

2295
01:26:57,270 --> 01:26:55,440
itinerancy because in that

2296
01:27:00,709 --> 01:26:57,280
self-containment you've got this natural

2297
01:27:02,470 --> 01:27:00,719
resolution of ambiguity and uncertainty

2298
01:27:04,950 --> 01:27:02,480
because you always know you're you're on

2299
01:27:06,709 --> 01:27:04,960
the same arterial path repeatedly

2300
01:27:08,790 --> 01:27:06,719
visiting the states that you once

2301
01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:08,800
occupied so that that's what i would say

2302
01:27:12,070 --> 01:27:10,320
from the point of view of physicist i

2303
01:27:13,430 --> 01:27:12,080
may say something very different in a

2304
01:27:16,070 --> 01:27:13,440
few years time when i've learned more

2305
01:27:18,790 --> 01:27:16,080
about quantum theory so let me ask chris

2306
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:18,800
could you ever describe that kind of

2307
01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:21,120
mathematic physicist's treatment of

2308
01:27:29,350 --> 01:27:23,600
dynamics in pure quantum information

2309
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:31,590
well i i think if we if we try to think

2310
01:27:34,870 --> 01:27:33,360
of scaling up from

2311
01:27:37,030 --> 01:27:34,880
from

2312
01:27:42,870 --> 01:27:37,040
um

2313
01:27:45,030 --> 01:27:42,880
fields then this looks impossible

2314
01:27:47,590 --> 01:27:45,040
but

2315
01:27:50,070 --> 01:27:47,600
if we think of it

2316
01:27:51,430 --> 01:27:50,080
informationally maybe it doesn't look

2317
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:51,440
impossible

2318
01:27:55,669 --> 01:27:52,960
now

2319
01:27:58,310 --> 01:27:55,679
i'll go back to john wheeler's

2320
01:28:01,590 --> 01:27:58,320
notion that a bit is fundamentally the

2321
01:28:02,830 --> 01:28:01,600
answer to a yes or no question

2322
01:28:05,270 --> 01:28:02,840
and

2323
01:28:07,350 --> 01:28:05,280
information the information theory is

2324
01:28:09,830 --> 01:28:07,360
about bits and systems that exchange

2325
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:14,870
but

2326
01:28:18,390 --> 01:28:16,550
question

2327
01:28:19,750 --> 01:28:18,400
do you mind repeating that last part but

2328
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:19,760
what

2329
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:24,960
doesn't specify is the complexity of the

2330
01:28:29,110 --> 01:28:25,920
question

2331
01:28:31,990 --> 01:28:29,120
that has a yes or no answer

2332
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:32,000
so in in your case carl you have an

2333
01:28:36,870 --> 01:28:34,560
oscillatory system that

2334
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:36,880
passes after a discrete time a

2335
01:28:40,629 --> 01:28:39,840
particular boundary

2336
01:28:43,189 --> 01:28:40,639
so

2337
01:28:47,189 --> 01:28:43,199
the the system may well be asking the

2338
01:28:49,910 --> 01:28:47,199
question have i passed this boundary

2339
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:49,920
and the answer is yes or no

2340
01:28:55,430 --> 01:28:52,960
or am i passing the boundary right now

2341
01:28:57,270 --> 01:28:55,440
well that's one bit

2342
01:29:01,189 --> 01:28:57,280
uh that's a yes or no question but it's

2343
01:29:05,669 --> 01:29:02,310
so

2344
01:29:08,149 --> 01:29:05,679
it may be that we can

2345
01:29:10,629 --> 01:29:08,159
develop

2346
01:29:14,229 --> 01:29:10,639
a theory that leaves the complexity of

2347
01:29:16,629 --> 01:29:14,239
the generative model unspecified

2348
01:29:19,510 --> 01:29:16,639
and concentrates

2349
01:29:22,229 --> 01:29:19,520
just on the bit flow

2350
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:22,239
across the boundary

2351
01:29:28,229 --> 01:29:26,000
that counts as evidence in one direction

2352
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:28,239
and perturbative action in the other

2353
01:29:35,669 --> 01:29:33,030
and and then i think the two pictures

2354
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:35,679
fit together rather nicely

2355
01:29:40,310 --> 01:29:37,679
because one can imagine that

2356
01:29:41,830 --> 01:29:40,320
generative model operating it that the

2357
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:41,840
general model being the model that

2358
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:50,709
operating in many different scales

2359
01:29:57,990 --> 01:29:52,550
where one could think of the scales as

2360
01:30:02,229 --> 01:29:59,510
and this gets back in a sense to your

2361
01:30:03,750 --> 01:30:02,239
question about language

2362
01:30:06,470 --> 01:30:03,760
how

2363
01:30:09,350 --> 01:30:06,480
language is a way of posing questions

2364
01:30:10,470 --> 01:30:09,360
it's a way of babbling in the world

2365
01:30:13,350 --> 01:30:10,480
now this

2366
01:30:14,709 --> 01:30:13,360
process of babbling it seems to me as

2367
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:14,719
far as i understand it's like poking and

2368
01:30:18,070 --> 01:30:16,480
prodding to test your own self model to

2369
01:30:20,550 --> 01:30:18,080
see what's the difference between me and

2370
01:30:22,629 --> 01:30:20,560
the world it sounds like that

2371
01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:22,639
never stops even though we

2372
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:24,800
call it babbling as if infants do it

2373
01:30:28,709 --> 01:30:27,120
does it ever stop are we not engaging in

2374
01:30:30,229 --> 01:30:28,719
this right now

2375
01:30:31,350 --> 01:30:30,239
and i like this phrase babbling all the

2376
01:30:33,110 --> 01:30:31,360
way down

2377
01:30:34,870 --> 01:30:33,120
i'm gonna put that on a t-shirt by the

2378
01:30:36,550 --> 01:30:34,880
way chris or and it also by the way

2379
01:30:38,310 --> 01:30:36,560
seems like babbling all the way up too

2380
01:30:41,350 --> 01:30:38,320
because we're constantly engaging in

2381
01:30:43,430 --> 01:30:41,360
this so firstly is that true

2382
01:30:44,149 --> 01:30:43,440
does babbling have an end

2383
01:30:47,590 --> 01:30:44,159
and

2384
01:30:49,510 --> 01:30:47,600
presume a self

2385
01:30:51,669 --> 01:30:49,520
in order to test the self

2386
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:51,679
what i mean is carl when you were

2387
01:30:56,229 --> 01:30:53,040
speaking about

2388
01:30:58,229 --> 01:30:56,239
the process of babbling it's the infant

2389
01:30:59,590 --> 01:30:58,239
doing something on the world in order to

2390
01:31:02,229 --> 01:30:59,600
make a model

2391
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:02,239
but that first part was it's it is doing

2392
01:31:05,990 --> 01:31:03,760
something to the world to me already

2393
01:31:07,270 --> 01:31:06,000
presumes the external world whereas the

2394
01:31:09,830 --> 01:31:07,280
way that i'm understanding it is that

2395
01:31:12,149 --> 01:31:09,840
the self is a model but it's also

2396
01:31:14,629 --> 01:31:12,159
in your point of view it's something

2397
01:31:17,110 --> 01:31:14,639
objective and i believe from my readings

2398
01:31:20,870 --> 01:31:17,120
of chris i don't i believe chris is more

2399
01:31:22,390 --> 01:31:20,880
on the non-dual end where it's it's it's

2400
01:31:25,510 --> 01:31:22,400
that's less the case so i'm unsure

2401
01:31:27,189 --> 01:31:25,520
anyway i just said a slew so please

2402
01:31:28,470 --> 01:31:27,199
respond to it as you

2403
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:28,480
as you wish

2404
01:31:33,750 --> 01:31:30,880
right well i mean just to um

2405
01:31:36,149 --> 01:31:33,760
dispel the notion that the self is um

2406
01:31:38,550 --> 01:31:36,159
objective no i i didn't mean that i i

2407
01:31:39,990 --> 01:31:38,560
meant it in exactly the same way that um

2408
01:31:42,470 --> 01:31:40,000
i think both chris and mike have been

2409
01:31:44,950 --> 01:31:42,480
intimating that you know from the inside

2410
01:31:46,629 --> 01:31:44,960
of a cell or a person or the baby's

2411
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:46,639
skull um

2412
01:31:51,350 --> 01:31:48,159
your

2413
01:31:55,510 --> 01:31:51,360
self um is

2414
01:31:57,590 --> 01:31:55,520
quite a a sophisticated um construct

2415
01:31:59,350 --> 01:31:57,600
fantasy hypothesis

2416
01:32:01,590 --> 01:31:59,360
that is physically realized possibly

2417
01:32:03,510 --> 01:32:01,600
neuronally in some lucky creatures and

2418
01:32:06,229 --> 01:32:03,520
some lucky children uh you may actually

2419
01:32:07,350 --> 01:32:06,239
find some children never get that far

2420
01:32:09,189 --> 01:32:07,360
you know i'm thinking here of people

2421
01:32:11,430 --> 01:32:09,199
with severe autism for example who don't

2422
01:32:15,510 --> 01:32:11,440
have a theory of mind simply because

2423
01:32:19,990 --> 01:32:15,520
they never developed the notion that um

2424
01:32:21,669 --> 01:32:20,000
i am a person um and you know what comes

2425
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:21,679
along with that is that

2426
01:32:25,590 --> 01:32:23,600
you know if you've got very very severe

2427
01:32:28,550 --> 01:32:25,600
autism or you know if he likes other

2428
01:32:30,870 --> 01:32:28,560
theoretically idealized autism and that

2429
01:32:33,510 --> 01:32:30,880
means that personhood doesn't exist so

2430
01:32:36,310 --> 01:32:33,520
you would be i would regard you as an

2431
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:36,320
animate french or you know

2432
01:32:39,669 --> 01:32:38,159
some um

2433
01:32:41,590 --> 01:32:39,679
interesting autonomous vehicle but you

2434
01:32:43,430 --> 01:32:41,600
would never be a person because i don't

2435
01:32:45,590 --> 01:32:43,440
i don't have the hypothesis that you

2436
01:32:47,590 --> 01:32:45,600
know there are people out there and that

2437
01:32:50,310 --> 01:32:47,600
people share certain sort of phenotypic

2438
01:32:52,310 --> 01:32:50,320
characteristics and um have intentions

2439
01:32:54,149 --> 01:32:52,320
in the same sense that i have intentions

2440
01:32:56,470 --> 01:32:54,159
so i just i'm not aware of that because

2441
01:32:58,629 --> 01:32:56,480
i just don't don't have that hypothesis

2442
01:33:00,390 --> 01:32:58,639
so it's a long-winded way of saying that

2443
01:33:03,189 --> 01:33:00,400
i didn't mean to imply

2444
01:33:04,390 --> 01:33:03,199
any objectivity here i was more going

2445
01:33:05,110 --> 01:33:04,400
the other way really i'm just saying

2446
01:33:07,189 --> 01:33:05,120
that

2447
01:33:10,149 --> 01:33:07,199
selfhood um

2448
01:33:11,669 --> 01:33:10,159
that would be one part of consciousness

2449
01:33:13,830 --> 01:33:11,679
and if you

2450
01:33:16,950 --> 01:33:13,840
want to associate cognition and

2451
01:33:19,030 --> 01:33:16,960
consciousness then perhaps possibly um

2452
01:33:22,229 --> 01:33:19,040
that kind of minimal selfhood would you

2453
01:33:23,430 --> 01:33:22,239
know would be necessarily part of of

2454
01:33:26,629 --> 01:33:23,440
cognition

2455
01:33:29,590 --> 01:33:26,639
this is a gift that you have to get by

2456
01:33:31,750 --> 01:33:29,600
crossing one of those bright lines

2457
01:33:35,030 --> 01:33:31,760
and it's just a fantasy that you bring

2458
01:33:37,270 --> 01:33:35,040
to the table to make sense of

2459
01:33:39,430 --> 01:33:37,280
all the impressions on your sort of

2460
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:39,440
sensory surface or your holographic

2461
01:33:44,149 --> 01:33:41,600
screen or your or your cell surface or

2462
01:33:46,709 --> 01:33:44,159
also the receptors you are equipped with

2463
01:33:49,110 --> 01:33:46,719
um to sense what's going on out there

2464
01:33:50,709 --> 01:33:49,120
does that make sense yeah i know that

2465
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:50,719
mike and and chris you may have a

2466
01:33:54,870 --> 01:33:51,760
response to that but i just want to

2467
01:33:56,950 --> 01:33:54,880
quickly respond to what professor first

2468
01:33:59,030 --> 01:33:56,960
was saying is so

2469
01:34:01,350 --> 01:33:59,040
and this is to both of you how do you

2470
01:34:03,830 --> 01:34:01,360
then prevent an existential crisis as

2471
01:34:05,910 --> 01:34:03,840
you start to study this so for example

2472
01:34:07,750 --> 01:34:05,920
carl before you and i were speaking and

2473
01:34:10,070 --> 01:34:07,760
i told you about some experiences i had

2474
01:34:11,910 --> 01:34:10,080
where i've deeply felt what you're

2475
01:34:14,870 --> 01:34:11,920
saying as being true that the self is a

2476
01:34:16,550 --> 01:34:14,880
fantasy and this oneness with all this

2477
01:34:18,550 --> 01:34:16,560
world being generated in one's mind and

2478
01:34:20,390 --> 01:34:18,560
i felt like that was akin to a psychotic

2479
01:34:22,470 --> 01:34:20,400
episode and it was extremely

2480
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:22,480
destabilizing and to be quite frank i'm

2481
01:34:27,189 --> 01:34:24,800
still recovering from that and so i'm

2482
01:34:31,350 --> 01:34:27,199
unsure how any of you all

2483
01:34:34,229 --> 01:34:31,360
do this work without constantly

2484
01:34:36,390 --> 01:34:34,239
being in a debilitating state of of

2485
01:34:38,310 --> 01:34:36,400
existence well existence is the question

2486
01:34:40,390 --> 01:34:38,320
here that it's an existential crisis

2487
01:34:43,109 --> 01:34:40,400
which i'm inquiring about so how is it

2488
01:34:44,950 --> 01:34:43,119
that you prevent yourself from getting

2489
01:34:47,270 --> 01:34:44,960
into that how could you say these words

2490
01:34:49,750 --> 01:34:47,280
of well the self is is not objective the

2491
01:34:52,229 --> 01:34:49,760
self may be a a fantasy quote unquote

2492
01:34:54,790 --> 01:34:52,239
but not then be able to to not speak and

2493
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:54,800
look around you in awe and and horror at

2494
01:34:57,990 --> 01:34:56,159
the same time

2495
01:34:59,830 --> 01:34:58,000
okay so that's a psychological uh

2496
01:35:01,430 --> 01:34:59,840
philosophical question anyone who wants

2497
01:35:03,590 --> 01:35:01,440
to take that up

2498
01:35:06,310 --> 01:35:03,600
i think i think there is a good deal of

2499
01:35:07,189 --> 01:35:06,320
existential um

2500
01:35:11,109 --> 01:35:07,199
what

2501
01:35:13,590 --> 01:35:11,990
uh

2502
01:35:15,750 --> 01:35:13,600
in doing what we're doing so it's just

2503
01:35:17,750 --> 01:35:15,760
par for the course

2504
01:35:22,229 --> 01:35:17,760
right

2505
01:35:22,239 --> 01:35:25,910
i'm not sure when gets over it

2506
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:27,109
i i

2507
01:35:29,830 --> 01:35:29,280
think it's more

2508
01:35:33,430 --> 01:35:29,840
um

2509
01:35:33,440 --> 01:35:38,790
being comfortable with it

2510
01:35:43,750 --> 01:35:41,270
you know i i i think you raise a really

2511
01:35:46,390 --> 01:35:43,760
a really important point and it's i

2512
01:35:47,270 --> 01:35:46,400
think this is in a class of

2513
01:35:50,470 --> 01:35:47,280
uh

2514
01:35:53,510 --> 01:35:50,480
a number of really destabilizing um

2515
01:35:55,109 --> 01:35:53,520
uh ideas that one picks up as one gets

2516
01:35:57,109 --> 01:35:55,119
older and studies things and there are

2517
01:35:59,109 --> 01:35:57,119
many of these i remember as a child

2518
01:36:01,109 --> 01:35:59,119
being completely freaked out by the fact

2519
01:36:02,950 --> 01:36:01,119
that i realized that you know we grow up

2520
01:36:04,310 --> 01:36:02,960
and we become these adults and these

2521
01:36:06,070 --> 01:36:04,320
adults bear

2522
01:36:07,750 --> 01:36:06,080
some resemblance to the children but

2523
01:36:09,270 --> 01:36:07,760
they're definitely not the same thing

2524
01:36:11,030 --> 01:36:09,280
and so in some sense you could sort of

2525
01:36:12,629 --> 01:36:11,040
see it coming it's almost even even

2526
01:36:13,910 --> 01:36:12,639
before you realize that you're gonna you

2527
01:36:16,229 --> 01:36:13,920
know you're gonna you're gonna die

2528
01:36:17,430 --> 01:36:16,239
biologically someday before long before

2529
01:36:19,910 --> 01:36:17,440
that you realize that you're going to

2530
01:36:21,510 --> 01:36:19,920
undergo some transition that's going to

2531
01:36:24,310 --> 01:36:21,520
you know turn you into a completely

2532
01:36:26,629 --> 01:36:24,320
different sort of creature which really

2533
01:36:28,709 --> 01:36:26,639
you know has some continuity but maybe

2534
01:36:30,390 --> 01:36:28,719
not you know it's certainly not you

2535
01:36:32,390 --> 01:36:30,400
persisting in the same way as you are

2536
01:36:33,910 --> 01:36:32,400
now right so some kind of weird butter

2537
01:36:34,870 --> 01:36:33,920
you know caterpillar butterfly effect

2538
01:36:36,310 --> 01:36:34,880
where

2539
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:36,320
you're just not going to be around in

2540
01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:38,400
that same way as as you are now right so

2541
01:36:42,070 --> 01:36:40,320
that's kind of the first thing you you

2542
01:36:43,510 --> 01:36:42,080
realize as a child and then there's many

2543
01:36:45,030 --> 01:36:43,520
others that sort of you know you learn

2544
01:36:46,709 --> 01:36:45,040
about boltzmann brains and all the

2545
01:36:48,229 --> 01:36:46,719
different you know human arguments so

2546
01:36:50,310 --> 01:36:48,239
but you know all the stuff that you know

2547
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:50,320
i had to i i did um

2548
01:36:54,629 --> 01:36:52,400
i did a philosophy class with my son

2549
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:54,639
when he was little uh uh we were doing

2550
01:36:58,070 --> 01:36:56,320
um homeschooling and so i kind of did

2551
01:36:59,910 --> 01:36:58,080
this and i realized very quickly that i

2552
01:37:01,590 --> 01:36:59,920
have to be very careful with this stuff

2553
01:37:03,830 --> 01:37:01,600
because if right somebody who has the

2554
01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:03,840
capacity to understand it it's extremely

2555
01:37:09,109 --> 01:37:06,800
destabilizing and i think that uh for at

2556
01:37:11,270 --> 01:37:09,119
this point for myself uh what you know i

2557
01:37:13,030 --> 01:37:11,280
sort of go with with descartes a little

2558
01:37:15,910 --> 01:37:13,040
bit in the following sense

2559
01:37:19,510 --> 01:37:15,920
i i i'm not depressed by it in the sense

2560
01:37:21,910 --> 01:37:19,520
that whatever we discover is is a truer

2561
01:37:23,590 --> 01:37:21,920
model of the self than we may have had

2562
01:37:25,510 --> 01:37:23,600
it doesn't it i don't i don't think

2563
01:37:28,550 --> 01:37:25,520
there's any way in which it makes it

2564
01:37:31,910 --> 01:37:28,560
less um it makes us less less less

2565
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:31,920
valuable less interesting less engaging

2566
01:37:36,390 --> 01:37:34,320
all of that is still true it's just that

2567
01:37:38,070 --> 01:37:36,400
now we've realized that a different set

2568
01:37:39,830 --> 01:37:38,080
of mechanisms can now

2569
01:37:41,270 --> 01:37:39,840
implement that magic than we thought

2570
01:37:43,910 --> 01:37:41,280
right so you may have had so you know

2571
01:37:45,590 --> 01:37:43,920
some sort of um idea that well there has

2572
01:37:46,950 --> 01:37:45,600
to be some sort of um

2573
01:37:48,470 --> 01:37:46,960
different kind of unique process that

2574
01:37:51,030 --> 01:37:48,480
makes this permanent self and therefore

2575
01:37:53,270 --> 01:37:51,040
i'm this individual and i have i have uh

2576
01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:53,280
you know i have true true beliefs and

2577
01:37:57,030 --> 01:37:55,760
preferences and i exist in some way i i

2578
01:37:58,790 --> 01:37:57,040
don't think you can ever convince

2579
01:38:00,229 --> 01:37:58,800
yourself that you that that that isn't

2580
01:38:02,870 --> 01:38:00,239
true and that you don't exist it's just

2581
01:38:04,870 --> 01:38:02,880
that now you find out that actually

2582
01:38:06,470 --> 01:38:04,880
the way you get to be that is by these

2583
01:38:07,510 --> 01:38:06,480
sets of mechanisms and they're very

2584
01:38:09,430 --> 01:38:07,520
interesting it's the sort of thing that

2585
01:38:11,590 --> 01:38:09,440
carl and chris have been talking about

2586
01:38:13,350 --> 01:38:11,600
so that's what gets you to be this

2587
01:38:15,189 --> 01:38:13,360
individual this kind of individual and

2588
01:38:17,270 --> 01:38:15,199
it's kind of amazing that that works but

2589
01:38:18,790 --> 01:38:17,280
that doesn't to me that doesn't um

2590
01:38:20,070 --> 01:38:18,800
diminish all of the things all of the

2591
01:38:22,310 --> 01:38:20,080
things that i thought were true about

2592
01:38:24,229 --> 01:38:22,320
what the individual actually is right

2593
01:38:26,229 --> 01:38:24,239
your reality the reality of it the

2594
01:38:27,590 --> 01:38:26,239
impermanent impermanence is there but we

2595
01:38:28,629 --> 01:38:27,600
knew that from the time you were a kid

2596
01:38:30,550 --> 01:38:28,639
you knew that it wasn't going to be

2597
01:38:32,149 --> 01:38:30,560
permanent so that that part you know you

2598
01:38:33,910 --> 01:38:32,159
sort of have to deal with from the start

2599
01:38:35,430 --> 01:38:33,920
after that it's all you're learning

2600
01:38:37,189 --> 01:38:35,440
after that is just that you were really

2601
01:38:39,109 --> 01:38:37,199
mistaken about what it takes to be that

2602
01:38:41,030 --> 01:38:39,119
sort of creature you thought maybe it

2603
01:38:42,629 --> 01:38:41,040
had to be some magical whatever now you

2604
01:38:43,990 --> 01:38:42,639
think that wow it's a set of you know

2605
01:38:45,350 --> 01:38:44,000
feedback loops and whatever else so

2606
01:38:46,950 --> 01:38:45,360
that's surprising but

2607
01:38:48,229 --> 01:38:46,960
that's okay we we learn about you know

2608
01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:48,239
we learn about uh different

2609
01:38:51,430 --> 01:38:49,840
underpinnings to things all the time so

2610
01:38:53,750 --> 01:38:51,440
that's okay but i don't i don't think

2611
01:38:56,229 --> 01:38:53,760
any of it diminishes the the the sort of

2612
01:38:58,550 --> 01:38:56,239
um uh just the incredible awe of of

2613
01:39:00,070 --> 01:38:58,560
being a sentient being i can think about

2614
01:39:00,950 --> 01:39:00,080
these things

2615
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:00,960
yeah

2616
01:39:07,350 --> 01:39:03,520
just to reiterate that sorry i didn't in

2617
01:39:10,390 --> 01:39:07,360
any way mean to demean um our selfhood

2618
01:39:13,189 --> 01:39:10,400
or yourself in particular um by calling

2619
01:39:16,070 --> 01:39:13,199
it a fantasy i actually meant it

2620
01:39:18,310 --> 01:39:16,080
and indeed have written about it um in

2621
01:39:19,590 --> 01:39:18,320
terms of something quite fantastic

2622
01:39:21,669 --> 01:39:19,600
so we've written papers called the

2623
01:39:25,109 --> 01:39:21,679
fantastic organ the brain is a fantastic

2624
01:39:27,510 --> 01:39:25,119
organ just because it can produce these

2625
01:39:28,790 --> 01:39:27,520
fantasies it's absolutely fantastic

2626
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:28,800
and of course they

2627
01:39:33,830 --> 01:39:30,960
you know in relation to our early

2628
01:39:35,590 --> 01:39:33,840
conversation the capacity to have these

2629
01:39:37,430 --> 01:39:35,600
fantasies which have incredible

2630
01:39:38,950 --> 01:39:37,440
explanatory power

2631
01:39:42,790 --> 01:39:38,960
if you can attain them and you can

2632
01:39:44,870 --> 01:39:42,800
maintain them um is the part of the

2633
01:39:47,350 --> 01:39:44,880
complexity which allows us to cross

2634
01:39:51,270 --> 01:39:47,360
these bright lines or these gaps uh and

2635
01:39:53,430 --> 01:39:51,280
become our cuts and become um closer to

2636
01:39:55,830 --> 01:39:53,440
you know to the kind of creatures that

2637
01:39:57,109 --> 01:39:55,840
can can even entertain the notion of the

2638
01:39:58,790 --> 01:39:57,119
heart problem

2639
01:40:00,629 --> 01:39:58,800
just to so

2640
01:40:01,669 --> 01:40:00,639
mike i just love that better answer we

2641
01:40:02,629 --> 01:40:01,679
don't know what the answer will look

2642
01:40:04,310 --> 01:40:02,639
like

2643
01:40:06,470 --> 01:40:04,320
i'm going to tell andy clark about that

2644
01:40:08,070 --> 01:40:06,480
he'll tell david chalmers

2645
01:40:10,550 --> 01:40:08,080
but to come back to the point so i

2646
01:40:11,270 --> 01:40:10,560
didn't mean to demean that um

2647
01:40:12,310 --> 01:40:11,280
and

2648
01:40:14,390 --> 01:40:12,320
you know

2649
01:40:15,030 --> 01:40:14,400
phrases that i remember coming across

2650
01:40:17,510 --> 01:40:15,040
and

2651
01:40:19,510 --> 01:40:17,520
having to learn uh when i was a student

2652
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:19,520
of things like existential angst and

2653
01:40:25,189 --> 01:40:22,639
ontological security all of these things

2654
01:40:27,189 --> 01:40:25,199
um you know rear their

2655
01:40:29,430 --> 01:40:27,199
face if you are worried about these

2656
01:40:31,669 --> 01:40:29,440
things but the very fact that you are

2657
01:40:34,870 --> 01:40:31,679
able to entertain the notion that you

2658
01:40:37,750 --> 01:40:34,880
are not real is quite remarkable um and

2659
01:40:39,990 --> 01:40:37,760
i repeat is it is a gift of a fantastic

2660
01:40:43,109 --> 01:40:40,000
sort it is a kind of fantasy that very

2661
01:40:45,430 --> 01:40:43,119
few um creatures haven't and sometimes

2662
01:40:47,990 --> 01:40:45,440
even few people have so there are people

2663
01:40:48,830 --> 01:40:48,000
who actually will go out there to try

2664
01:40:54,709 --> 01:40:48,840
and

2665
01:40:57,590 --> 01:40:54,719
treasure the uh the gift of being able

2666
01:41:00,070 --> 01:40:57,600
to make sense of the world as me and by

2667
01:41:01,189 --> 01:41:00,080
taking drugs or doing mindfulness

2668
01:41:03,350 --> 01:41:01,199
therapy

2669
01:41:04,870 --> 01:41:03,360
in order to actually get to a state

2670
01:41:07,189 --> 01:41:04,880
where um

2671
01:41:08,790 --> 01:41:07,199
so almost a freudian oceanic state where

2672
01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:08,800
selfhood is dissolved so they can

2673
01:41:13,750 --> 01:41:10,960
experience it and certainly if you've

2674
01:41:16,470 --> 01:41:13,760
taken um sort of psychedelic drugs in

2675
01:41:17,990 --> 01:41:16,480
sufficient quantity um you may have that

2676
01:41:20,790 --> 01:41:18,000
kind of experience that's a

2677
01:41:23,270 --> 01:41:20,800
derealization or dissociative experience

2678
01:41:26,070 --> 01:41:23,280
which is the realization that

2679
01:41:29,030 --> 01:41:26,080
your your construct your fantasy of

2680
01:41:31,590 --> 01:41:29,040
selfhood that is engaged and

2681
01:41:32,390 --> 01:41:31,600
engaging continuously and for as long as

2682
01:41:33,189 --> 01:41:32,400
you live

2683
01:41:36,790 --> 01:41:33,199
um

2684
01:41:38,870 --> 01:41:36,800
if you want to appreciate that then you

2685
01:41:41,750 --> 01:41:38,880
have to experience the you know

2686
01:41:43,109 --> 01:41:41,760
the alternative hypothesis uh so you

2687
01:41:45,750 --> 01:41:43,119
know

2688
01:41:48,310 --> 01:41:45,760
experiencing derealization or this is

2689
01:41:50,950 --> 01:41:48,320
depersonalization

2690
01:41:52,870 --> 01:41:50,960
is actually i think

2691
01:41:55,109 --> 01:41:52,880
one really important step to

2692
01:41:57,750 --> 01:41:55,119
self-understanding so i don't see it as

2693
01:41:58,790 --> 01:41:57,760
at all threatening nor diminishing it's

2694
01:42:00,709 --> 01:41:58,800
it's just

2695
01:42:02,149 --> 01:42:00,719
part of self-understanding which not

2696
01:42:03,830 --> 01:42:02,159
everybody gets

2697
01:42:06,189 --> 01:42:03,840
the opportunity to indulge i mean i mean

2698
01:42:08,790 --> 01:42:06,199
in some you know in some sense the most

2699
01:42:10,550 --> 01:42:08,800
destabilizing thing of all ought to be

2700
01:42:12,870 --> 01:42:10,560
just the bare facts of developmental

2701
01:42:16,229 --> 01:42:12,880
biology when you learn that you are in

2702
01:42:17,990 --> 01:42:16,239
fact not some sort of uh un indivisible

2703
01:42:19,590 --> 01:42:18,000
monadic whatever which i don't even i'm

2704
01:42:20,950 --> 01:42:19,600
not even sure what that would entail if

2705
01:42:22,390 --> 01:42:20,960
you were but but the fact that we are

2706
01:42:23,990 --> 01:42:22,400
all like all intelligence is our

2707
01:42:26,390 --> 01:42:24,000
collective intelligences we are all made

2708
01:42:28,629 --> 01:42:26,400
of parts and the idea that you used to

2709
01:42:31,590 --> 01:42:28,639
be this quiescent oocyte this little bag

2710
01:42:34,149 --> 01:42:31,600
of chemical reactions that did very

2711
01:42:36,229 --> 01:42:34,159
little and then very slowly sort of step

2712
01:42:38,470 --> 01:42:36,239
by step you turned into whatever you are

2713
01:42:40,310 --> 01:42:38,480
now if that's not destabilizing i don't

2714
01:42:42,149 --> 01:42:40,320
know what is because just knowing

2715
01:42:44,229 --> 01:42:42,159
nothing knowing nothing else about

2716
01:42:45,990 --> 01:42:44,239
evolution or i mean to me developmental

2717
01:42:47,910 --> 01:42:46,000
biology is sort of like the the you know

2718
01:42:49,910 --> 01:42:47,920
the queen of of all the sciences because

2719
01:42:52,070 --> 01:42:49,920
just that fact that you go from from

2720
01:42:53,910 --> 01:42:52,080
from chemistry and physics to mind in in

2721
01:42:56,229 --> 01:42:53,920
nine months plus to however many years

2722
01:42:57,830 --> 01:42:56,239
it takes uh and that and that you are

2723
01:43:00,229 --> 01:42:57,840
literally a collection of cells that you

2724
01:43:02,149 --> 01:43:00,239
could see in pond water more or less is

2725
01:43:03,350 --> 01:43:02,159
just if you know you're you're a bunch

2726
01:43:04,870 --> 01:43:03,360
of cells in the trench coat you know

2727
01:43:06,310 --> 01:43:04,880
like the in the cartoons like if if

2728
01:43:08,950 --> 01:43:06,320
that's not destabilizing i don't know

2729
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:08,960
what i don't know what else is

2730
01:43:13,270 --> 01:43:10,880
so quickly just i know we have to get

2731
01:43:15,189 --> 01:43:13,280
going and i'd like to wrap

2732
01:43:16,550 --> 01:43:15,199
with a set of

2733
01:43:19,270 --> 01:43:16,560
brief questions

2734
01:43:21,030 --> 01:43:19,280
but quickly carl and perhaps well anyone

2735
01:43:23,350 --> 01:43:21,040
who would like to answer what is it that

2736
01:43:26,070 --> 01:43:23,360
separates those who are depersonalized

2737
01:43:27,430 --> 01:43:26,080
or go through certain psychotic episodes

2738
01:43:29,590 --> 01:43:27,440
from

2739
01:43:31,430 --> 01:43:29,600
what is it that separates those who are

2740
01:43:33,830 --> 01:43:31,440
fortunately like myself where it's

2741
01:43:35,430 --> 01:43:33,840
abating and i'm able to function and i'm

2742
01:43:37,510 --> 01:43:35,440
able to have friends and so on versus

2743
01:43:38,870 --> 01:43:37,520
those who go into

2744
01:43:40,870 --> 01:43:38,880
a ward

2745
01:43:43,109 --> 01:43:40,880
because obviously those issues can like

2746
01:43:44,950 --> 01:43:43,119
you mentioned it's a gift

2747
01:43:46,870 --> 01:43:44,960
for some it's not a gift i felt like for

2748
01:43:48,950 --> 01:43:46,880
myself would i don't want that gift to

2749
01:43:51,189 --> 01:43:48,960
go i'll return that gift i wish there

2750
01:43:52,709 --> 01:43:51,199
was a receipt with it but and i still

2751
01:43:54,870 --> 01:43:52,719
actually feel like that but for some

2752
01:43:56,950 --> 01:43:54,880
obviously it's it's it's a horrible and

2753
01:44:00,390 --> 01:43:56,960
persistent feeling so what is it that

2754
01:44:04,229 --> 01:44:02,229
well i'll answer from the point of view

2755
01:44:06,390 --> 01:44:04,239
of a

2756
01:44:08,470 --> 01:44:06,400
psychiatrist with a with with a

2757
01:44:11,109 --> 01:44:08,480
commitment to sort of a mechanistic or

2758
01:44:14,870 --> 01:44:11,119
theoretical uh understanding i i think

2759
01:44:16,950 --> 01:44:14,880
it's um the inability to resolve the um

2760
01:44:18,310 --> 01:44:16,960
the uncertainty that is

2761
01:44:20,470 --> 01:44:18,320
attends

2762
01:44:23,350 --> 01:44:20,480
entertaining the dual hypothesis that i

2763
01:44:24,629 --> 01:44:23,360
may exist or i may not exist as me

2764
01:44:26,470 --> 01:44:24,639
but as soon as you increase your

2765
01:44:27,830 --> 01:44:26,480
hypothesis space you naturally induced

2766
01:44:29,510 --> 01:44:27,840
uncertainty

2767
01:44:31,750 --> 01:44:29,520
an ambivalence and

2768
01:44:37,270 --> 01:44:31,760
a kind of ambiguity

2769
01:44:40,629 --> 01:44:38,950
we're talking about the same imperatives

2770
01:44:42,870 --> 01:44:40,639
that we've been talking about all along

2771
01:44:44,709 --> 01:44:42,880
which is to resolve uncertainty resolve

2772
01:44:46,870 --> 01:44:44,719
ambiguity to make the most sense of

2773
01:44:49,030 --> 01:44:46,880
things so if you've entertained this

2774
01:44:50,870 --> 01:44:49,040
hypothesis that you know you are not you

2775
01:44:52,709 --> 01:44:50,880
and you are you and you can't fully

2776
01:44:54,310 --> 01:44:52,719
resolve that then you will

2777
01:44:57,030 --> 01:44:54,320
find yourself in a state of chronic

2778
01:45:00,070 --> 01:44:57,040
uncertainty that unfortunately does have

2779
01:45:01,669 --> 01:45:00,080
pathological consequences um i'm not

2780
01:45:03,430 --> 01:45:01,679
sure that being in a psych ward is

2781
01:45:04,709 --> 01:45:03,440
necessarily too pathological i mean you

2782
01:45:06,629 --> 01:45:04,719
know

2783
01:45:08,550 --> 01:45:06,639
there are ways to live very nicely and

2784
01:45:09,990 --> 01:45:08,560
constructively and fantastically in

2785
01:45:12,390 --> 01:45:10,000
psych wars and i've done i spent two

2786
01:45:15,910 --> 01:45:12,400
years in the therapeutic community um

2787
01:45:18,870 --> 01:45:15,920
but there will be other sequelae of

2788
01:45:20,390 --> 01:45:18,880
an inability to resolve uncertainty

2789
01:45:22,229 --> 01:45:20,400
they're expressed clinically and

2790
01:45:24,550 --> 01:45:22,239
physiologically in terms of anaesthetic

2791
01:45:26,950 --> 01:45:24,560
load and the like and chronic stress and

2792
01:45:28,470 --> 01:45:26,960
the like which can be very unpleasant uh

2793
01:45:30,470 --> 01:45:28,480
and ultimately can have physical

2794
01:45:32,709 --> 01:45:30,480
consequences from the point of view you

2795
01:45:34,229 --> 01:45:32,719
know the effects on your body so the

2796
01:45:36,390 --> 01:45:34,239
question now is why can't some people

2797
01:45:38,390 --> 01:45:36,400
resolve that uncertainty i think it's

2798
01:45:39,189 --> 01:45:38,400
then a question of the

2799
01:45:41,830 --> 01:45:39,199
the

2800
01:45:45,590 --> 01:45:41,840
biophysical

2801
01:45:49,590 --> 01:45:45,600
processes that enable you to update your

2802
01:45:51,830 --> 01:45:49,600
beliefs and build good models of of your

2803
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:51,840
world and that

2804
01:45:56,310 --> 01:45:53,440
again this is a very pragmatic answer

2805
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:56,320
from the point of view of you know of of

2806
01:46:00,149 --> 01:45:57,600
clinical

2807
01:46:02,629 --> 01:46:00,159
of a clinician um

2808
01:46:05,109 --> 01:46:02,639
probably the answers lie in the way that

2809
01:46:05,910 --> 01:46:05,119
your brain has assembled itself

2810
01:46:10,950 --> 01:46:05,920
to

2811
01:46:12,790 --> 01:46:10,960
of evidence um and the it looks at the

2812
01:46:14,629 --> 01:46:12,800
mechanisms that underwrite that ability

2813
01:46:17,109 --> 01:46:14,639
to deploy attention

2814
01:46:18,629 --> 01:46:17,119
rest very much upon neuromodulating

2815
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:18,639
neurotransmitters and the kind you you

2816
01:46:21,270 --> 01:46:19,600
know you'll have heard about in the

2817
01:46:24,830 --> 01:46:21,280
popular media and will have read about

2818
01:46:26,550 --> 01:46:24,840
things like dopamine serotonin um and

2819
01:46:28,870 --> 01:46:26,560
indeed um

2820
01:46:32,189 --> 01:46:28,880
oxytocin uh all the drugs that are

2821
01:46:34,629 --> 01:46:32,199
either used or the targets of um

2822
01:46:37,830 --> 01:46:34,639
psycholytics or psychedelics or

2823
01:46:39,910 --> 01:46:37,840
psychometics or drugs that are used to

2824
01:46:44,310 --> 01:46:39,920
try and control some of these feelings

2825
01:46:48,470 --> 01:46:46,870
specifically that attend um anxiety

2826
01:46:49,669 --> 01:46:48,480
disorders and

2827
01:46:52,870 --> 01:46:49,679
depression

2828
01:46:55,030 --> 01:46:52,880
so you know understanding the and this

2829
01:46:57,590 --> 01:46:55,040
is the not the feedback loops that do

2830
01:46:58,629 --> 01:46:57,600
self-organization in a developing embryo

2831
01:47:00,709 --> 01:46:58,639
but

2832
01:47:02,950 --> 01:47:00,719
the same kinds of mechanisms that do the

2833
01:47:06,310 --> 01:47:02,960
feedback loops and self-organization of

2834
01:47:08,310 --> 01:47:06,320
different um structures within the brain

2835
01:47:09,910 --> 01:47:08,320
um that can be construed as blankets

2836
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:09,920
within blankets or holographic screens

2837
01:47:15,669 --> 01:47:11,760
within holographic screens or cells

2838
01:47:17,510 --> 01:47:15,679
within cells um or um complying the same

2839
01:47:19,510 --> 01:47:17,520
principles but in the particular

2840
01:47:21,990 --> 01:47:19,520
instance of the brain doing this and

2841
01:47:25,270 --> 01:47:22,000
understanding the neurochemistry and the

2842
01:47:27,830 --> 01:47:25,280
biophysics of this fundamental

2843
01:47:30,950 --> 01:47:27,840
sense-making self-organization

2844
01:47:34,310 --> 01:47:30,960
um it turns out that these are certain

2845
01:47:35,109 --> 01:47:34,320
these neurochemical messages um

2846
01:47:37,270 --> 01:47:35,119
are

2847
01:47:39,430 --> 01:47:37,280
particularly important in resolving that

2848
01:47:41,910 --> 01:47:39,440
kind of uncertainty and it may be that

2849
01:47:43,910 --> 01:47:41,920
you are have either taken drugs or you

2850
01:47:46,229 --> 01:47:43,920
have just grown up to not be able to

2851
01:47:49,270 --> 01:47:46,239
deploy these neurotransmitters possibly

2852
01:47:51,109 --> 01:47:49,280
properly um again leading us to well how

2853
01:47:52,870 --> 01:47:51,119
would you gain control of it

2854
01:47:54,629 --> 01:47:52,880
well you might want to do mindfulness

2855
01:47:56,629 --> 01:47:54,639
training meditation and the like that

2856
01:47:58,950 --> 01:47:56,639
just internal attention state training

2857
01:48:03,109 --> 01:47:58,960
basically to mentalize

2858
01:48:06,790 --> 01:48:04,390
mike i know that you had a set of

2859
01:48:08,709 --> 01:48:06,800
questions that you're eager to ask

2860
01:48:10,149 --> 01:48:08,719
both carl and chris did you already get

2861
01:48:12,070 --> 01:48:10,159
to all of them

2862
01:48:14,390 --> 01:48:12,080
uh well that would be impossible but i

2863
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,400
got to uh i get to men i get too many of

2864
01:48:17,750 --> 01:48:16,239
them most of the important ones i

2865
01:48:20,070 --> 01:48:17,760
learned i learned a massive amount today

2866
01:48:22,149 --> 01:48:20,080
this has been just amazing um but i will

2867
01:48:24,149 --> 01:48:22,159
be um pestering both of them with

2868
01:48:26,149 --> 01:48:24,159
additional questions in uh you know

2869
01:48:26,950 --> 01:48:26,159
years to come

2870
01:48:28,310 --> 01:48:26,960
great

2871
01:48:29,830 --> 01:48:28,320
to end i actually i have a question that

2872
01:48:31,750 --> 01:48:29,840
i didn't email you that just occurred to

2873
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:31,760
me as you all were speaking it's

2874
01:48:35,990 --> 01:48:33,360
something that professor levin that you

2875
01:48:38,470 --> 01:48:36,000
said what are some aspects of your field

2876
01:48:41,270 --> 01:48:38,480
maybe their theories or concepts that

2877
01:48:43,669 --> 01:48:41,280
your peers are extremely resistant to

2878
01:48:45,669 --> 01:48:43,679
but you are not

2879
01:48:47,189 --> 01:48:45,679
wow um

2880
01:48:49,350 --> 01:48:47,199
i don't know if we got uh time for all

2881
01:48:51,910 --> 01:48:49,360
that but that's a lot that's a that's a

2882
01:48:53,750 --> 01:48:51,920
lot of stuff um i mean the most basic

2883
01:48:56,390 --> 01:48:53,760
there are many i mean the most basic

2884
01:48:58,709 --> 01:48:56,400
thing is this notion of uh profound

2885
01:49:00,950 --> 01:48:58,719
symmetries between these fields uh you

2886
01:49:05,030 --> 01:49:00,960
know this idea that you can um that you

2887
01:49:07,030 --> 01:49:05,040
can you can basically import uh

2888
01:49:09,270 --> 01:49:07,040
concepts and strategies from cognitive

2889
01:49:10,550 --> 01:49:09,280
neuroscience or behavioral science and

2890
01:49:13,030 --> 01:49:10,560
deploy them in other spaces

2891
01:49:14,709 --> 01:49:13,040
developmental biology and metabolism

2892
01:49:17,589 --> 01:49:14,719
that you can that it even makes sense to

2893
01:49:19,750 --> 01:49:17,599
talk about um you know goals memories uh

2894
01:49:21,350 --> 01:49:19,760
planning navigation uh all of these

2895
01:49:23,030 --> 01:49:21,360
kinds of things outside of what we're

2896
01:49:24,870 --> 01:49:23,040
used to which is some you know rat in

2897
01:49:26,950 --> 01:49:24,880
the maze or something like this so so

2898
01:49:28,950 --> 01:49:26,960
that continuum this idea that it goes

2899
01:49:31,030 --> 01:49:28,960
that that something important goes all

2900
01:49:33,030 --> 01:49:31,040
the way down or maybe a long way down

2901
01:49:35,990 --> 01:49:33,040
even if not all the way down that that

2902
01:49:38,149 --> 01:49:36,000
that is uh in in in a few circles that's

2903
01:49:39,669 --> 01:49:38,159
okay in most circles that that i would

2904
01:49:42,229 --> 01:49:39,679
deal with that's just that's just

2905
01:49:43,830 --> 01:49:42,239
complete you know complete heresy um

2906
01:49:47,430 --> 01:49:43,840
yeah there are many others but that's uh

2907
01:49:52,629 --> 01:49:49,750
chris

2908
01:49:55,030 --> 01:49:52,639
well i i think that mike really nailed

2909
01:50:00,470 --> 01:49:55,040
it with that answer

2910
01:50:04,870 --> 01:50:01,990
i would say

2911
01:50:07,510 --> 01:50:04,880
yes it's it's not

2912
01:50:10,149 --> 01:50:07,520
a popular idea that

2913
01:50:11,750 --> 01:50:10,159
physics and biology and psychology are

2914
01:50:13,589 --> 01:50:11,760
actually all more or less the same

2915
01:50:14,550 --> 01:50:13,599
science

2916
01:50:18,830 --> 01:50:14,560
but

2917
01:50:22,470 --> 01:50:20,149
[Music]

2918
01:50:24,070 --> 01:50:22,480
professor fristen

2919
01:50:25,990 --> 01:50:24,080
yeah well that would be my favorite

2920
01:50:28,550 --> 01:50:26,000
heresy i'm just going to agree with with

2921
01:50:30,950 --> 01:50:28,560
mike and chris you know the physics

2922
01:50:34,229 --> 01:50:30,960
biology psychology they're all the same

2923
01:50:37,030 --> 01:50:34,239
thing and i just wanted to end by saying

2924
01:50:38,390 --> 01:50:37,040
uh you know heresy i'm not so sure

2925
01:50:40,229 --> 01:50:38,400
anymore i i

2926
01:50:42,390 --> 01:50:40,239
you know the number of times for example

2927
01:50:44,950 --> 01:50:42,400
i see mike levin cited

2928
01:50:46,070 --> 01:50:44,960
in high-end philosophy journals and

2929
01:50:48,390 --> 01:50:46,080
treatments

2930
01:50:51,109 --> 01:50:48,400
um suggests to me that in fact it's

2931
01:50:53,750 --> 01:50:51,119
going to be the minority um in at least

2932
01:50:58,629 --> 01:50:53,760
in a few years time that that don't

2933
01:51:02,149 --> 01:50:58,639
subscribe to this more holistic um um

2934
01:51:04,709 --> 01:51:02,159
encompassing um and i think um correct

2935
01:51:06,390 --> 01:51:04,719
way of viewing um you know cellular life

2936
01:51:09,830 --> 01:51:06,400
sciences but you're more generally sort

2937
01:51:13,510 --> 01:51:11,750
so

2938
01:51:16,149 --> 01:51:13,520
you know who is going to be the heretic

2939
01:51:19,189 --> 01:51:16,159
in a few years time i i suspect it won't

2940
01:51:24,470 --> 01:51:21,510
and i'll end with one that i see

2941
01:51:25,669 --> 01:51:24,480
from particularly chris and michael is

2942
01:51:28,629 --> 01:51:25,679
it sounds like

2943
01:51:31,030 --> 01:51:28,639
what you all are doing or trying to

2944
01:51:32,550 --> 01:51:31,040
understand god or trying to come up with

2945
01:51:35,350 --> 01:51:32,560
the model of god and the reason why i

2946
01:51:37,030 --> 01:51:35,360
say that is because with looking at a

2947
01:51:39,189 --> 01:51:37,040
neuron and saying okay how can a neuron

2948
01:51:41,109 --> 01:51:39,199
look around and have some model and know

2949
01:51:42,629 --> 01:51:41,119
that it's embedded in something higher

2950
01:51:44,709 --> 01:51:42,639
that sounds to me like well if we apply

2951
01:51:46,950 --> 01:51:44,719
that to ourselves and continually do so

2952
01:51:49,750 --> 01:51:46,960
we would reach something akin to god and

2953
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:49,760
then chris with the quantum babbling if

2954
01:51:53,030 --> 01:51:51,520
one can think of it like that well what

2955
01:51:54,550 --> 01:51:53,040
is babbling

2956
01:51:56,950 --> 01:51:54,560
i know that maybe you all don't want to

2957
01:51:58,149 --> 01:51:56,960
use the word god but for me

2958
01:52:00,390 --> 01:51:58,159
what i

2959
01:52:02,470 --> 01:52:00,400
i have that many of my peers are

2960
01:52:04,470 --> 01:52:02,480
extremely against would be to

2961
01:52:06,870 --> 01:52:04,480
philosophize about god or to explicate

2962
01:52:08,950 --> 01:52:06,880
god or to take god seriously as not an

2963
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:08,960
old man in the sky with a beard

2964
01:52:13,750 --> 01:52:11,520
and so i i see you all as doing

2965
01:52:16,070 --> 01:52:13,760
something similar in him

2966
01:52:17,830 --> 01:52:16,080
i'm happy to be in your company i'm

2967
01:52:20,149 --> 01:52:17,840
extremely lucky

2968
01:52:21,750 --> 01:52:20,159
all science um

2969
01:52:23,669 --> 01:52:21,760
starts with an act of faith with a very

2970
01:52:25,669 --> 01:52:23,679
important act of faith which is that the

2971
01:52:28,310 --> 01:52:25,679
world is in some way understandable that

2972
01:52:30,149 --> 01:52:28,320
we are not just a bubble in this um you

2973
01:52:31,589 --> 01:52:30,159
know random universe that just happens

2974
01:52:33,830 --> 01:52:31,599
to you know as

2975
01:52:35,830 --> 01:52:33,840
a as a total random string of of of

2976
01:52:37,990 --> 01:52:35,840
coincidence looks like it's got laws and

2977
01:52:39,189 --> 01:52:38,000
then in a tomorrow somewhere you know

2978
01:52:40,950 --> 01:52:39,199
while you sleep the whole thing falls

2979
01:52:42,390 --> 01:52:40,960
apart and we go back to a random you

2980
01:52:45,669 --> 01:52:42,400
know sort of random distribution of

2981
01:52:47,430 --> 01:52:45,679
events so we all there's no proof of any

2982
01:52:49,589 --> 01:52:47,440
of it of any of that right we take we

2983
01:52:51,189 --> 01:52:49,599
have to take that on faith and that may

2984
01:52:52,790 --> 01:52:51,199
be for a scientist that may be the most

2985
01:52:54,629 --> 01:52:52,800
destabilizing thing if you can't get

2986
01:52:56,629 --> 01:52:54,639
yourself to believe that that that the

2987
01:52:58,470 --> 01:52:56,639
world isn't for some weird reason

2988
01:53:00,709 --> 01:52:58,480
understandable and amenable at least to

2989
01:53:02,470 --> 01:53:00,719
some extent to our logic and probing

2990
01:53:04,629 --> 01:53:02,480
then then you can't do science you can't

2991
01:53:07,350 --> 01:53:04,639
do any of the things that that we do so

2992
01:53:09,510 --> 01:53:07,360
so being uh useful and and hopefully

2993
01:53:11,270 --> 01:53:09,520
productive in in what we do

2994
01:53:12,870 --> 01:53:11,280
starts with that act of faith that is

2995
01:53:14,790 --> 01:53:12,880
just completely to my knowledge it's

2996
01:53:16,229 --> 01:53:14,800
it's it's it's it's an axiom it's not

2997
01:53:18,709 --> 01:53:16,239
based on any evidence that you could

2998
01:53:20,310 --> 01:53:18,719
possibly have so so i do think that sort

2999
01:53:22,470 --> 01:53:20,320
of underlies everything that we do just

3000
01:53:24,070 --> 01:53:22,480
this idea that we can in fact squeeze

3001
01:53:26,149 --> 01:53:24,080
some understanding out of what's going

3002
01:53:27,830 --> 01:53:26,159
on around us

3003
01:53:29,589 --> 01:53:27,840
i'd also think you'd be surprised i know

3004
01:53:31,270 --> 01:53:29,599
that you said that it doesn't comport

3005
01:53:33,189 --> 01:53:31,280
with the traditional definition of god

3006
01:53:34,550 --> 01:53:33,199
but it depends on what tradition and how

3007
01:53:36,629 --> 01:53:34,560
far back one goes because there are

3008
01:53:37,430 --> 01:53:36,639
mystics of let's say christian mystics

3009
01:53:39,270 --> 01:53:37,440
and his

3010
01:53:41,189 --> 01:53:39,280
muslim mystics or islamic mystics and so

3011
01:53:42,550 --> 01:53:41,199
on yeah and obviously then the eastern

3012
01:53:44,390 --> 01:53:42,560
end is much more

3013
01:53:47,350 --> 01:53:44,400
mystical

3014
01:53:48,870 --> 01:53:47,360
so okay well thank you all so much for

3015
01:53:51,830 --> 01:53:48,880
for

3016
01:53:53,910 --> 01:53:51,840
and thank you i i've learned a

3017
01:53:57,030 --> 01:53:53,920
tremendous amount and i hope you all

3018
01:53:59,030 --> 01:53:57,040
have too i i i'm blessed and thank you

3019
01:54:00,870 --> 01:53:59,040
so much

3020
01:54:03,589 --> 01:54:00,880
well thank you very much this was this

3021
01:54:04,950 --> 01:54:03,599
was a very interesting conversation and

3022
01:54:07,030 --> 01:54:04,960
thank you very much for putting it

3023
01:54:08,550 --> 01:54:07,040
together yeah absolutely this is this is

3024
01:54:09,510 --> 01:54:08,560
great great great idea thanks for having

3025
01:54:11,270 --> 01:54:09,520
us on

3026
01:54:13,270 --> 01:54:11,280
yeah i'm just super pleased super

3027
01:54:14,709 --> 01:54:13,280
pleased to have been part of it yeah it

3028
01:54:15,990 --> 01:54:14,719
went in directions that i didn't expect

3029
01:54:18,390 --> 01:54:16,000
i didn't i don't even think i looked at

3030
01:54:19,669 --> 01:54:18,400
my notes my my notepad here and i wrote

3031
01:54:22,070 --> 01:54:19,679
some notes but they occurred to me in

3032
01:54:24,470 --> 01:54:22,080
the moment okay thank you all mike i

3033
01:54:26,790 --> 01:54:24,480
know you got to get going and and

3034
01:54:29,669 --> 01:54:26,800
so well thank you all all right thank

3035
01:54:34,229 --> 01:54:29,679
you cheers cheers thanks so much bye

3036
01:54:37,910 --> 01:54:36,229
the podcast is now finished if you'd

3037
01:54:41,109 --> 01:54:37,920
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3038
01:54:45,189 --> 01:54:41,119
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3039
01:54:47,830 --> 01:54:45,199
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3040
01:54:49,589 --> 01:54:47,840
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3041
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